# Transcript: CRL Chair Controversial Statements — SACD Documentary

Source: South African Church Defenders (SACD) Documentary
Video file: CRL-Chair-Controversial-Statements-SACD-Documentary.mp4

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[00:00] is that um there is a problem a serious one in our land where the church has been under attack and uh it's not a new thing of course it's something that has been going on for for a very long time but looking at it in recent years the attacks have intensified the the intens inensified. You can see that there is this strong move to do away with the worship of Christ in our

[00:37] lands. Good day. I am Apostle Queen Esther. Today we're looking at the agenda of the CRL. I am certain that you've heard a lot about the CRL recently simply because the agenda is to regulate the church to regulate the body of Christ. Is it in the interest of Christians, our people, our people of South Africa to regulate the body of Christ with the intention of silencing the pastors with the threat of

[01:21] uh um arresting them, criminalizing them because they practicing freedom of worship? I ask you today, is that necessary? All religious practitioners must be registered with the Sarah Rights Commission through their accredited umbrella organization. So what happens to those who refuse to be registered? It will be an offense to practice without a license. You have to be registered or else you'll go to jail.

[02:00] One of the arguments that is raised by the CRL commission is to say they want to make things that they call umbrella bodies so that they cluster people, classify people in their religions according to groups and make sure that you know people feed into groups whether be it a Christian religion or any other religion. So, so that you are part and parcel of a group like they are proposing a legislation that will squeeze you to say you like it or not.

[02:35] you you will be squeezed into a group if you don't feel I remember one of the clips where it the the the the 2015 clip the chairperson at that time said something interesting to say for now we don't have the power you know but if we pass legislation we will box you put you in a box and in that box you will need a license and with that license you must make sure that you stick to the box and if you are not in that box therefore we will take a license from you as the state as the government and that will simply mean that it will

[03:19] be criminal not to fit into the box that you know the chairperson and and and and the CLL they were talking about at that time. Here's a license. Not from the theological side. We're giving you a license like they do with lawyers, they do with social workers, they do with doctors, they do with everybody else that the interdenominational theological center is given with the doctor of philosophy and the doctor of divinity very well. But we're giving you this for you to go and practice and we hold you accountable that you should be within the box of

[04:00] Christianity. The minute you step out of it, we will take away our license. So that will be you know directly opposite to what you know the negotiators of the constitution had in mind. They did not have a group mentality. Now when you speak of a box and putting people in a box and then because they are Christian and in the name of umbrella bodies. Now those umbrella bodies by definition it will mean a group and of which in the first day when they were thinking of this this group mentality is never has never been a mindset from parliament. So once you say umbrella body we squeeze you into that group it defeats even the original intentions of why CRL is there in the first place

[04:59] when first did this thing start yeah I remember we were at Swami okay at the speaker's office one of the leaders of the pastors a religious leader was saying but did you see the breaking news and so on and then by then we just like okay it's an incident that has happened it will die down. Mhm. Yeah. Until then in 2016 one of my colleagues uh pastor Larry Matala he's a media man. So whilst watching YouTube channels and all these things brought to attention to say guys something is coming the church is about to be regulated.

[05:42] Controversial statement. A controversial statement is a declaration that provokes strong disagreement, public argument, or disapproval because it presents an opinion that is likely to be offensive or strongly opposed by many people. These statements often involve conflicting viewpoints, particularly on sensitive or contentious topics, and can spark intense debate or discussion among the public. Key characteristics of a controversial statement, causes disagreement. The core feature is that it creates a rift with strong opinions on opposing sides, sparks debate and argument. It doesn't just get a shrug. It actively invites discussion, often heated, and can lead to public disputes, offensive or opposed. Many people find the opinion expressed offensive or are strongly against it. Sometimes due to personal beliefs or values, contradictory viewpoints. The statement often stems from or highlights conflicting perspectives on an issue.

[06:51] Public nature. While not always public, controversial statements often become public, fueling broader societal discussion or conflict. Controversial statements touches sensitive topics. Often these statements involve politics, religion, culture, morality or social issues, areas where people hold deep personal convictions. Example, saying God does not speak and anyone who hears from God must be taken to a psychiatric ward could be controversial.

[07:27] Some might disagree wholeheartedly. Controversial statements can start important conversations or debates, but they can also create conflict if expressed carelessly. Many a times the chairperson of the CRL um to Mukonazi Kuba has been heard making remarks that for someone in her position she's not supposed to make. Some of the remarks were if someone says that they hear from God they should have they should be taken to a psychiatric hospital. Let's educate our people that no one talks to God.

[08:14] Let's just put it as bluntly as all that. If someone says to you, "God was talking to me," tell them to go to the psychiatric ward. Removing my mother or whatever they do with the bones and putting in another person where my mother was buried is a violation of my cultural rights because when I go to my mother's grave, I find another body there and I don't know where this is coming from and I'm like I'm here for my mother and my mother, you know, is not responding. Does this imply that it is considered a violation only when it aligns with her feelings? Let's educate our people that no one talks to God. No one talks to

[08:55] God. No one talks to God. I'm here for my mother and my mother, you know, is not responding. No one talks to God. No one talks to God. No one talks to God. This is Aposto Mutijua and I want to talk about the CRL Commission chairwoman's attempt to regulate the church. If I look at the CRL commission, the CRL commission is there to protect the rights of religious uh cultural and linguistic communities. But if you look at what the chairwoman because I want to emphasize but from the way in which we if we we go by by by um by the news media, if we go by

[09:42] internet stories that we receive, it looks like this is a campaign by one woman or one person within the uh the commission. uh for example in last last year in 2024 uh in June we were invited by the CRL commission to be part of their national consultative uh conference uh to give them a mandate for the next 5 years and I I recall very well uh the issue of the regulation of the church was never part of the agenda. It was not even mentioned in passing.

[10:17] All right. And if I look at um the tenure of um the the former chairperson professor Musma, Professor Mus did not entertain the issue of the regulation of the church. Even on that uh conference, consultative conference, the issue was not on the table. But as soon as she came back on h the issue was back on the table. So in as far as we are concerned, this is her pet project. This is what she's pushing along. I'm here for my mother and my mother know is not responding. No one talks to

[10:53] God. No one talks to God. No one talks to God. This is a a pet project. This is what she's pushing alone. We are not hearing all the other commissioners within the CRL talking about this. And uh so we we we we have a reason to suspect this is a project and as the churches we are against the regulation of the of the uh religious sector particularly the the the charismatic and the Pentecostal h sector of the of the church. uh we believe that the church has a right within our constitution to exist and to operate the way it's supposed to operate the way they would like to operate without the interference of the state

[11:41] and that's why these so-called religious leaders can take it to whatever level they want to take it to. I think the more ridiculous they become some of our people might start becoming like seriously is this what this is all about? Oh, you can do whatever so long as you so you say you had a vision at night and this is what they said you must do. And people who say they're fighting for freedom of religion have literally declared a war specifically on me and then dragging Sharon into the fray because they think this is easy to do.

[12:18] We can just insult people any which way we like. So in as far as we are concerned this is a a pet project this is what she's pushing along what about sangas and their finances why don't you regulate that was Islam also grilled all religions the same you know is this an attack on just the churches did you look at sangas did you look at Islam we looked at Islam we look at the Jewish religion as well and to look at what systems they have in place the issue of traditional healers were were very firm on it we've serious complaints about people who've been asked to cash their pensions and to give it to them.

[12:58] They're going to multiply it by 10 and then they disappear with the money and regular papers. What are you what are you proposing for them? We're proposing clamp down of adverts. That's how they get to people. They get to people by promising them all those things you see in the adverts. So our energies are focused on cutting the cord. Once you you need word of mouth adverts, you'll go back to the old system that we knew about traditional healers that you'll be told by someone that healer is very good. I went there. Which healer is good? The one who made you to cash out your pension.

[13:42] [Music] meeting. So as far as we are concerned, this is a pet project. This is what she's pushing

[14:20] alone. We discovered that most of the churches especially charismatic church there are those who genuinely don't know but there are others who have their own agendas in terms of how do I milk this cow dry milk this cow dry what is your view on that statement yeah that thing is very offensive that thing is undermining that thing is anti-C CRL commission mandate. I mean from the constitution. The constitution did not encourage that. The CRL act itself does not

[15:07] encourage that that type of language. By the way, even at when we call the CR, the CEO was there as well. you know, a delegation of the CEO, some officials from the CRL in the previous administration, you know, and as well as the CEO. I raised the very question to the deputy chairperson and the CEO to say, but the pronouncement, this is what your previous chairperson said and we did not appreciate it. But I'm saying if somebody is not breaking the law, we are infringing on their constitutional right to freedom of expression and freedom of association.

[16:00] In South Africa, a storm is brewing. Words spoken against the church have ignited a wave of concern across the church. words that question the very freedom of religion our constitution promises. When those in power speak against the faith, the church must respond. These are the words that shook the pulpit of South Africa. At the center of it all stands the chairperson of the CRL rights commission, Tokco Muinazi, a woman whose statements have shaken pastors, leaders and believers across the nation. Commercialization of religious institutions is back in the spotlight with a growing concerns over the abuse of a faith and the commercialization of spiritual practices. The CRL rights commission is calling for stronger government intervention and has announced the formation of a peerreview committee to help enforce legislation in the sector.

[16:58] Working towards a system that will make sure that no religious leader operates without a license. All religious practitioners must be registered with the Sara Rights Commission through their accredited umbrella organization. No religious leader will be allowed to operate without the registration. The CRL rights commission is bracing itself for possible court action from certain religious organizations and leaders. Several are resisting the commission's recommendations to regularize religion. The recommendations are binding and can only be challenged in court. A parliamentary process will precede implementation.

[17:38] So today we need to understand what the CRL stands for and we know that these chairpersons of the section 9 uh chapters are appointed by the president. So um I need us to understand what they stand for. The CRL rights commission also known as the commission for the promotion and protection of the rights of cultural, religious and linguistic communities in South Africa and that's their function. Am I confused by what

[18:13] I've just read? Do you understand the function? It is for protection and promotion. Is that what is happening right now? Is that actually sir Mr. President Ma'am Kulova what you are doing? My next question would be who has given you these instructions to bring the church down? Where does it come from? Where does it stem from? So which other countries have actually started with this or already have this

[18:52] um regulation of churches? Yeah. A lot of different countries have been having started this thing. So what happens in those countries where by pastors who are pastors but they are not um licensed or regulated what happens to them? Yeah. then it become illegal for you to to start the church because you don't meet the qualifiers. So my name is Elyn Mora. I am a lawyer. I'm an advocate by by profession and a governness professional as well. I obviously love the Lord and I believe that my entire existence is premised on

[19:34] um the love of the Lord Jesus. And that's why topics like these really interest me. I'm also the team lead at uh Crown Co. Crown Court is a legal consultancy firm. Uh one of whose practice areas is uh religious freedoms. So we believe that the right to the freedom of religion is sacrosanked and therefore should not be tampered with. I think it is on this basis that I got in touch with you um once I learned of um the meeting that happened in South Africa this week concerning a proposal to um uh resurrect

[20:13] uh resurrect um ideas or plans to enact a law um regarding faith in in that nation. And I'm just going to paint the picture of what has happened in Uganda and I think it will help us realize that um it it seems to be the same template um from which a lot of these things are being ruled out. So about 8 years ago uh a strange evil began to to ride its head from the pits of hell presenting itself as the draft national and faith religious organizations policy. So that is what it's framed as in Uganda. Now the perpetrators of this evil hiding in government did and still attempt um to present it as the long missing piece of the puzzle in apparently creating a safe and blissful place for enjoying the freedom of worship in Uganda. However,

[21:08] um on close scrutiny, initially when the policy was was introduced, um one of the the the prevalent statements that that came about as a reason was one to c exploitation and manipulation and theft and things of the sort within uh churches and especially I'm mentioning that it was intended to c mushrooming churches and so when it was initially introduced in in 2016 there was quite an appro and on close scrutiny of the policy um it was realized that it was in

[21:44] fact intended to tighten oversight of clergy and congregations by the government and bring religion under the direct political control. Pretty much to say to bring faith um under the yampits of the state where the church um the church of the Lord Jesus um answers to the state. Now um we realized that by by attempting to to pass this policy all religious denominations would have to bow um to the states religious demands. So initially the conversation was was just around um churches but Uganda as a nation is uh um has quite a number of

[22:27] faiths from Protestant Catholics um Pentecostals Muslims um 7th Day Adventists. So 99% of people in Uganda believe in some form of God or some form of deity. So what that policy really was intended to do was to govern over um 99% and and sort of attempt to create a state religion that dictates how things must be done. and and so our approach to it was um one helping the church realize that it was under direct um direct attack but also

[23:05] that other faiths would serve as collateral damage or is what the CRL proposing a threat to the church in South Africa? Yeah, what the CLL is proposing it's a serious threat to the church. Mhm. and their approach on that 2017 you know they call it commercialization of religion yes and abuse of people's beliefs thing of theirs is ill informed you know it's like it's an overreach as as far as as far as uh their proposal

[23:45] from whatever they found in their findings what they proposing if it's left unattended that it will be equivalent to creating a state religion. Yeah, that particular topic then we need to define what we are looking at. So the report is saying at the beginning that it's looking at investigating and understanding this concept of the commercialization of religion and then also it's looking at the extent um it's taking place in South Africa and then it's making recommendations as to what should be done regarding the commercialization of religion but I thought you know there was a glaring omission in the report in that there's no definition for what is commercialization of religion no definition there's a discussion at some point but the report does not offer any definition and I'm just concerned that you know if you're investigating if you want to make recommendations on this report then we need to understand what is meant by the commercialization of religion you know does it refer to the business activities of um religious organization does it refer to the um value of the products that are being sold or the services that are sold in the name of religion are we referring to separate entities ities. It's not quite clear to me and you know one of the um persons at the focus group discussions actually said there are positive aspects of um commercial um rel in religion and there are negative aspects and I think that's important. It's especially important in the context where there's a lot of pressure on organizations, nonprofits to operate like their commercial entities, like their businesses, which is a bit confusing because if some of them start to operate like businesses, now they the questions are being asked now. I I mean I can accept that it's not perhaps focused on

[25:47] legitimate business operations, but the point is the report because it's investigating this issue, it should at least be clear on what is the definition for the commercialization of religion. We had no powers to deal with it. We could only rely on the legislation being fasttracked to enable other religious leaders to go in there and say, "Okay, this is normal." No, this is very much out of the ordinary.

[26:23] We need to disable these people from doing what they were doing. But parliament is not budging. Parliament has got the responsibility to independently consider uh the recommendations of the commission and it has been doing that including holding public discussions or hearings with a wide range of stakeholders and as and when he decided it will tamper those recommendation before the sitting of the national assembly for a decision. what uh the powers that the commission does not have is to instruct parliament on how to legislate and what to legislate and that is a serious misunderstanding on the side of the chair of the commission.

[27:05] What are the repercussions if you set up a tent and you profess to be a pastor? I mean what's going to happen to somebody like that? the amendments we're looking at. Yeah, there will be a criminal. It will be a criminal offense and you will be charged criminally for doing that. Just like a doctor, if you've been struck off the role or if you're not registered, you can't just wake up and be a doctor that system. So we're saying you will be registered and you will operate under a tight monitoring system and then if you operate illegally without the license to

[27:41] operate there are criminal charges following on that point mom let's say I am on that register and I go to Rama church and I see the light and I start doing the work of God and I change and I am this model citizen What then happens to me when I have a calling to serve in the children's ministry? Are you going to come to me and say I cannot do that which I believe God has called me to do because there's some register where my name is will definitely do that irrespective of your calling. We are a danger to society. Is that not going against what uh the religion uh professes to do which is to allow people to change and become a better version of themselves? Let's educate our people that no one talks to God. No one talks to God. No one talks to God. I'm here for my mother and my mother, you know, is not responding. No one talks to God.

[28:37] No one talks to God. No one talks to God. I want to stress that this doesn't affect freedom of religion at all. We're not going to be looking at how people pray, how they worship, whom they worship, whom they pray to. Were only interested in the behavior of the individual. As early as February, the first time as I understand it she made any public statement, she said this. She said, "Society needs help." Bear in mind what parliament has already said. Remember that. Parliament has already said, "But

[29:12] Parliament is not bargaining. stakeholders and as and when it is ready it will table those recommendation assembly for a decision. What the powers that the commission does not have is to instruct government on how to registrate and what to registrate and this citizens

[29:49] of the commission. Society needs help and we are saying parliament must pass the relevant regulation that will say it's not business as usual around churches anymore. It's back on the table now squarely and we are going to be pushing it through. We are saying there should be a peer review. But if you have a peer review for lawyers, for doctors, for social workers, you need a system that says you want to open up a church. You want to be a religious leader, you apply first. We test if you don't have an unusual history. The peerreview committee will sit down and assess each person and grant them a license to run a

[30:27] church. Does that sound familiar? Society needs help and we are saying parliament must pass the relevant regulation, the relevant legislation that will say it's not churches anymore. I said this over 8 years ago never but look back because this thing that fell off the table or whatever it's back on the table now squarely and we're going to

[31:03] come to believe that come from the mouth of the same who started by saying that if anybody says they hear from you should send them to a circuit report. Uh it is very difficult to to believe such things that the motive behind given all the utterances that have been so consistent with regard to regulating the churches and especially pastors of charismatic churches. So it's

[31:38] very very difficult that the motive to believe that the motives are okay. Uh we have heard quite a lot which is consistent and it shows that the chairperson uh is not uh is biased when she speaks about uh Christianity. She goes very very hard. She bashes she discriminates. That is what we have seen. So even the trust is normal there because we know that the CRL is supposed to protect and promote all beliefs. So when you hear somebody who's entrusted with that work of promoting of protecting going like uh if

[32:25] you hear from God, you belong in a psychiatric hospital and then the very same person goes for the charismatic churches goes for the pastors only. Do you really believe that that person is for the church? Let's educate our people God. What would you like to say right to to Christians in um African countries whereby these things are are going to be put into motion? What should we do? Um

[33:06] uh because some people are saying why don't we just pray about this uh it's going to go away. Um what should we do? What should the church church church do in Africa to make sure that these um regulations that they're proposing uh in our African countries they never happen. Okay. Um here's what I'll say. Prayer is great and and it's extremely important. But um to prayer we we add action to our faith um we add action because ultimately um the people on the other end also believe something but they're acting on what they believe and that is how regulations or proposed regulations of this nature arising. So I will remind us of what Daniel did in his day because what South Africa is is facing is exactly uh what Daniel was facing and how he dealt with it is important. You know when they came up and proposed that they should pause prayer for 30 days. He could have said it's just 30 days I'll wait it out. But he knew the power of that constant communion. I think 2020 painted a very good picture of it had the Lord Lord had mercy on us. um by redeeming the church really. So my my my invitation to the Christians in in the nation of South Africa but also to people of other faiths in the nation of

[34:28] South Africa is that um they've got to rise up and they have got to vehemently um deal with this from its root. Employ all avenues possible. Um the Lord has graced each and every one of you with a skill with with a talent with with something. Use it. use it whether it's media, whether it's writing, whether it's advocacy, um whether it's your legal knowledge, whether it is your artistic, use whatever you have because at the end of the day, um this uh regulation has not come to to inconvenience men and

[35:04] women of God. It has come for you because without your faith, you can be sure that um you're as good as dead. You're as good as dead. Because you could be walking on the streets, but if you're spiritually dead, you are as good as dead. You cannot afford to allow the devil to determine who hears from God, what they hear from God. It is God who speaks and God is above all. I think like Paul said, whether we listen to you or we listen to God, you be the judge. We have chosen that we are the remnant of God in this day. And our focus and our sole determination is that we are submitted to God. And like the scripture says, submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee. There is no place for fear in this day. Uh light must confront

[35:55] darkness, for darkness to flee. The light must shine. Uh we are city that is set on the hill and it must shine. It cannot be hidden. it it's not time for us to hide um in prayer closets when we retreat you know at night by all means um make very good use of the prayer closets but when it's time we're both priests and we're kings and kings rule kings don't rule in hiding no they don't so we have a priestly anction but we also have a kingly anction and it's impossible to operate in a kingly anction if our priestly anction is being tampered with so if you are a person like myself. If you're a person like

[36:35] Pastor Faith that cares for the dominion of the Lord Jesus, that cares that the Lord returns for a church that is in great power, that is in great dominion, I implore you to rise up. I implore you to speak up. I implore you to be bold. And your boldness is not in in in your own strength, but is it's in the strength of the Lord because it's the Lord that that emboldens us. And he says we are more than conquerors. We have overcome. We have overcome. And because we have overcome, we can stand confidently and say that evil will not prosper in the

[37:10] nation of South Africa because that nation belongs to the Lord God Almighty. And it must accomplish the purpose for which it was set out and whoever is standing in the way of the work of God in that nation shall be brought down. because now is not a time for us to um to to caress the enemy and caress and and be shy about these things. Um that is not our place. The end time church is a church that is set out to rule and to reign for the glory of the Lord Jesus. So it's not a crazy idea that somebody slept and then thanks to the CRL am

[37:50] I'll say it for you chair Amanda [Laughter] this government possesses no capacity to understand spirituality how can a secular government a government that says whether there was God or not it does not matter sit there and be able to say you are a false prophet you're a good prophet the second thing is Even the so-called ridiculous uh self-regulation headed by Rico, that's foolishness. The most regulated body, religious body on this earth is the Catholic Church. Look at how corrupt it is to the very pilophilia within the

[38:29] Catholic Church has been there for not years, not decades, centuries, long before there was a South African government. Let's educate our people God.

[39:16] No, no, no.