# Transcript: Mkhwanazi-Xaluva — Religious Cults in SA (Newzroom Afrika panel) **YouTube ID:** `qW3iqvVYHUk` **URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW3iqvVYHUk **Retrieved:** 2026-06-22 via youtube-transcript-api --- ## Full Text Now, as South Africa continues to grapple with the rise of religious movements operating outside mainstream structures, questions are intensifying around where faith ends and control begins. In KwaMaphumulo, north of Durban, a growing congregation known as Ekuphakameni kwa Sheba Jehovah has drawn more than 50 followers who have cut ties with their families, abandoned careers, and in some cases medical treatment in pursuit of a life devoted entirely to their beliefs. For more on this, we're joined by the chairperson of the South African Commission for the promotion of protection of culture, religious, and linguistic communities, Thoko Mkhwanazi-Xaluva, and author and journalist Puncho Pilane. Puncho, perhaps to start the conversation with you, you've written about the relationship between religious organizations, religious communities, and how that shapes their lives, their worldview, and often their sensibilities. Where do we reasonably draw the line? I think where we draw the line is when freedom of religion is exploited to abuse people, but also to demonstrate unethical conduct. That's when freedom of religion stops, and that's when the religious leader concerned must then be dealt with in a proper manner that protects freedom of religion outside the violation of other sections in the constitution, like human dignity, for instance, and the right to education for children. Those types of things should not be tolerated when those rights are being violated. That's where it breaks down. Does that normative framework, Commissioner, take into consideration free will? Free will is very important, but sometimes we are victims of our own beliefs. When you believe in someone, and you believe that this thing he or she is telling to do is a godly thing to do, and then you even endanger your own life. For instance, in this church, people have stopped taking their chronic medication, although they have a right to do that, but under the banner of ethical conduct, but also making informed choices. Yeah. Puncho Pilane, I want to bring you into the conversation. Is it too early to call the reporting on the story we did a cult? What are the markers of a cult? I think it's very important that we distinguish the legitimate religious movements that exist and how they differ from a lot of cult-like and coercive structures, right? And I think here the key issue is around not necessarily theology, but about power. And a legitimate religious movement allows room for conscience, for questioning, and as the commissioner just said now, for human dignity and consent to be taken into consideration. In a lot of these cult-like movements, we see a lot of coercive structural inequalities happen, which are usually also marked by authoritarian leadership, the financial exploitation of members of these movements, secrecy, and isolation from family and other social groups that these members could belong to. As well, as a very important key part is also fear-based control, and the treatment of these leaders of these movements as beyond accountability. And from my understanding, you know, like I when we think about the South African constitution and how it strongly protects both the freedom of religion, but not the freedom to harm people, and also protects bodily, psychological integrity, education, and allows for the rights to reasonable and justifiable democratic processes. What we find in cult-like movements is that this is not always possible. And I think we see this particularly with the CRL's inquiry into the commercialization of religion and abuse of belief systems that has really documented serious abuses and pushed for stronger accountability mechanisms. And this is what we really need to focus on, and I think it's an area that is lacking in South Africa. Yeah. I want to perhaps appeal to what you wrote in Power and Faith, your book that you published several years ago exploring the question around the relationship between religion and how it shapes the worldview of society and those who are participants in those religions. Sometimes religious organization or religious movement can erode our common sensibilities in ways that aren't always particularly obvious, right? And sometimes it's a little bit more obvious. When a pastor says to you, "Drink some petrol and eat some grass," that is a lot more obvious than when a pastor says to you, "The Lord will cure your illnesses. No need to take this medication," and you think that you're exercising free will there by saying, "Look, I I don't want to take my medication. I'm going to let divine intervention be the path that I choose to heal through." It's one is a little bit more obvious than the other. And in Power and Faith, you explore the role that those institutions play. Talk to us about how it is that the lens through which you looked at it from your own perhaps lived experiences at the time of making those assessments. Yes, what you I couldn't agree more with what you said. And in in my book, Power and Faith, this is what I exactly look at on how religious movements, and in particular in the book, I look at evangelical churches, had the social, political, and interpersonal influence on the way that we govern our lives. And you know, this was based on not just my journalistic like endeavor of like investigating, but my own personal experiences, and I think because religion remains such a major force in South African public life, you know, we look at the census from 2022, we can see that data shows us that most people in the country are Christian or belong to some religious belief, which means that religion remains an important site for moral authority, social organizing, as well as political influence. And we cannot then look at that influence as it being not like being harm being automatically not harmful. We have to see how religious movements and and how they play a civic role in constructing what we deem as acceptable in society. And then this is why we then require the accountability because, you know, when we look at it from a political, a sociological, anthropological lens, we know the power that religion has and the influence that it has on our personally, but also what it does to increase group think. And if that group think is harmful, it is against queer people, it is against sexual reproductive health rights, it is influencing or about personal gains of these religious leaders, we have to question it. We have to put measures in, and it is the mandate of the state to ensure that South Africans and people and citizens are protected from that. Particularly marginalized communities such as the LGBTQ, women, children are protected from this because it has the impact as I have really documented in my book to weaken public health responses and interventions that are there to actually better Yeah. the outcomes of this country in different ways. Yeah. Commissioner Xaluva, what is it that organizations like yourself can do? Particularly those with a statutory obligation in the space to ensure that people still exercise their rights to religious association and religious practice, but do so in a way that doesn't endanger their lives and livelihoods? What have the South African Human Rights Commission after years of monitoring and observing what was happening, we then recommended what in this country has been done many times before, that there must be a a council for the religious sector, which will then mean there must be an act and a council formed out of that act. You have a council for lawyers, for doctors, for everyone. You even have one for traditional healers, for instance, in this country. There's a council for traditional health practitioners. So, we are recommending that. I'm sure you've also noticed the kind of pushback that some, very few, I must say, I say it's just that they are louder than the other millions out there who are green that there must be a council and we've set up what we call a section 22 committee that this month late this month will be going out to consult every religious leader on two things on a code of conduct and a peer review mechanism. This council will consist of religious leaders senior religious leaders from across the sector and we're saying since Parliament has passed a similar act for traditional health practitioners and there wasn't this kind of noise about freedom of religion. Traditional health practitioners have freedom of religion because they practice African traditional religion. So it has been done before. But the resistance of you matching Caluva must go. This section 22 must stop. Without actually telling us how do we stop a cult like church like this one? There is no law in this country. They'll keep telling you there are enough laws. Don't try and create more laws. When the Legal Practice Council the other councils for doctors for lawyers and social workers were set up the same laws were there. But because we're talking about an ethical conduct and a harmful religious practice. This is a harmful religious practice and what this religious leader is doing in my view is totally unethical. Entertaining people and you say I also stopped taking my medication. Stop taking your chronic medication is just not correct. Yeah. Puntso, cults aren't always steeped in religiosity. Sometimes they're just anti-establishment. They want to establish their own way of life in ways that does make the normative distinction between our way of living is better than your the right way of living better than yours. But it's not necessarily about the reference to a deity of of of of sorts. Outside of religion or outside of religious doctrine what are the things that make you think well such and such a movement might actually be a cult? So it is the French philosopher Blaise Pascal who says and I don't quote me but they somebody said something like men never do evil so completely and cheerfully when they do it unless they do it when they're doing it from religious conviction. And the development over the past few years I would say particularly over the past 5 to 10 years particularly over the last year we've seen how the religious right influences from places like the US and Europe have really posed a risk and a threat to infringing on constitutional rights not only in the US and in Europe but here in South Africa. And through the political the financial influence they can have on and I'm using religious conviction to drive their agendas that are anti-women anti-children anti-LGBTQ and anti-many marginalized groups and a lot of the progressive policies that South Africa over the past three decades of our democracy we worked very hard for. So when they have poorly designed regulation systems >> [clears throat] >> these ideologies then become intrusive selective and even punitive to minority religions but to minority identities as well. Yeah. So it's not about regulation per se but it's about us as South Africans being conscious of the level of influence religious conviction powered with and coupled with power and you know bad faith excuse the pun can have on marginalized people on the process of democracy as well as on ways in which to exploit people who are seeking validation identity belonging community and all these things that are human needs in these communities. We are seeing a regression of rights across South Africa across the world based on religious convictions being used by powerful people to take their agendas forward and we cannot just sit back. Yeah. >> Regulation has to take place. Yeah. Well we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time. Puntso Vilane really do appreciate it as well as the chairperson of the Center for Religious and Linguistic Rights [music] Togo Qubeka Caluva speaking to us. --- ## Timestamped [00:00] Now, as South Africa continues to [00:01] grapple with the rise of religious [00:04] movements operating outside mainstream [00:06] structures, questions are intensifying [00:08] around where faith ends and control [00:10] begins. In KwaMaphumulo, north of [00:13] Durban, a growing congregation known as [00:15] Ekuphakameni [00:17] kwa Sheba Jehovah has drawn more than 50 [00:19] followers who have cut ties with their [00:22] families, abandoned careers, and in some [00:24] cases medical treatment in pursuit of a [00:27] life devoted entirely to their beliefs. [00:30] For more on this, we're joined by the [00:31] chairperson of the South African [00:33] Commission for the promotion of [00:36] protection of culture, religious, and [00:38] linguistic communities, Thoko [00:40] Mkhwanazi-Xaluva, [00:41] and author and journalist Puncho Pilane. [00:44] Puncho, perhaps to start the [00:45] conversation with you, you've written [00:47] about the relationship between religious [00:50] organizations, religious communities, [00:52] and how that shapes their lives, their [00:54] worldview, [00:55] and often their sensibilities. [00:57] Where do we reasonably draw the line? [01:03] I think where we draw the line is when [01:07] freedom of religion [01:10] is exploited to abuse people, but also [01:15] to demonstrate unethical conduct. [01:19] That's when freedom of religion stops, [01:22] and that's when the religious leader [01:26] concerned must then be dealt with in a [01:30] proper [01:32] manner that protects freedom of religion [01:37] outside the violation [01:40] of other [01:41] sections in the constitution, [01:44] like human dignity, for instance, and [01:47] the right to education for children. [01:51] Those types of things should not be [01:55] tolerated [01:56] when those rights are being violated. [01:59] That's where [02:01] it breaks down. [02:04] Does that [02:05] normative framework, Commissioner, take [02:07] into consideration free will? [02:11] Free will is very important, [02:14] but sometimes we [02:17] are victims of our own beliefs. [02:22] When you believe in someone, and you [02:25] believe that this thing [02:28] he or she is telling to do is a godly [02:32] thing to do, and then you even endanger [02:35] your own life. For instance, in this [02:38] church, people have stopped taking their [02:40] chronic medication, [02:43] although they have a right to do that, [02:47] but under the banner of [02:53] ethical [02:54] conduct, but also [02:58] making informed choices. [03:03] Yeah. Puncho Pilane, I want to bring you [03:04] into the conversation. [03:06] Is it too early to call the reporting on [03:09] the story we did a cult? What are the [03:11] markers of a cult? [03:15] I think [03:16] it's very important that we distinguish [03:18] the legitimate religious movements that [03:21] exist and how they differ from a lot of [03:23] cult-like and coercive structures, [03:26] right? And I think here the key issue is [03:29] around not necessarily theology, but [03:32] about power. And a legitimate religious [03:35] movement allows room for conscience, for [03:37] questioning, and as the commissioner [03:39] just said now, for human dignity and [03:41] consent to be taken into consideration. [03:44] In a lot of these cult-like movements, [03:46] we see a lot of [03:48] coercive structural inequalities happen, [03:52] which are usually also marked by [03:55] authoritarian leadership, the financial [03:57] exploitation of members of these [04:00] movements, secrecy, and isolation from [04:03] family and other social groups that [04:06] these members could belong to. As well, [04:08] as a very important key part is also [04:11] fear-based control, and the treatment of [04:14] these leaders of these movements as [04:16] beyond accountability. [04:19] And from my understanding, you know, [04:21] like I [04:22] when we think about the South African [04:24] constitution and how it strongly [04:26] protects both the freedom of religion, [04:29] but not the freedom to harm people, and [04:32] also protects bodily, psychological [04:35] integrity, education, and allows for the [04:37] rights to [04:39] reasonable and justifiable democratic [04:42] processes. What we find in cult-like [04:45] movements is that this is not always [04:47] possible. And I think we see this [04:50] particularly with the CRL's inquiry into [04:53] the commercialization of religion and [04:56] abuse of belief systems that has really [04:59] documented serious abuses and pushed for [05:02] stronger accountability mechanisms. And [05:04] this is what we really need to focus on, [05:06] and I think it's an area that is lacking [05:09] in South Africa. Yeah. I want to perhaps [05:11] appeal to what you wrote in Power and [05:13] Faith, your book that you published [05:14] several years ago exploring the question [05:16] around the relationship between religion [05:19] and how it shapes the worldview of [05:21] society and those who are participants [05:23] in those religions. Sometimes [05:25] religious organization or religious [05:26] movement can erode our common [05:28] sensibilities in ways that aren't always [05:31] particularly obvious, right? And [05:33] sometimes it's a little bit more [05:34] obvious. When a pastor says to you, [05:36] "Drink some petrol and eat some grass," [05:38] that is a lot more obvious than when a [05:40] pastor says to you, "The Lord will cure [05:43] your illnesses. No need to take this [05:45] medication," [05:46] and you think that you're exercising [05:47] free will there by [05:50] saying, "Look, I I don't want to take my [05:51] medication. I'm going to let divine [05:53] intervention be [05:55] the path that I choose to heal through." [05:57] It's one is a little bit more obvious [05:59] than the other. And in Power and Faith, [06:01] you explore the role that those [06:02] institutions play. Talk to us about how [06:04] it is that the lens through which you [06:06] looked at it from your own perhaps lived [06:09] experiences at the time of making those [06:11] assessments. [06:13] Yes, what you I couldn't agree more with [06:16] what you said. And in in my book, Power [06:18] and Faith, this is what I exactly look [06:20] at on how religious movements, and in [06:23] particular in the book, I look at [06:25] evangelical churches, [06:27] had the social, political, and [06:29] interpersonal influence on the way that [06:31] we govern our lives. [06:33] And you know, this was based on not just [06:35] my journalistic like endeavor of like [06:38] investigating, but my own personal [06:40] experiences, and I think because [06:42] religion remains such a major force in [06:45] South African public life, you know, we [06:47] look at the census from 2022, we can see [06:51] that data shows us that most people in [06:53] the country [06:55] are Christian or belong to some [06:57] religious belief, which means that [07:00] religion remains an important site for [07:03] moral authority, social organizing, as [07:06] well as political influence. And we [07:08] cannot then look at that influence as it [07:12] being not [07:14] like being harm being automatically not [07:17] harmful. We have to see how religious [07:20] movements and and how they play a civic [07:23] role in constructing what we deem as [07:26] acceptable in society. And then this is [07:30] why we then require the accountability [07:33] because, you know, when we look at it [07:35] from a political, a sociological, [07:38] anthropological lens, we know the power [07:41] that religion has and the influence that [07:43] it has on our personally, but also what [07:47] it does to [07:49] increase group think. And if that group [07:51] think is harmful, it is against queer [07:54] people, it is against sexual [07:56] reproductive health rights, it is [07:59] influencing [08:00] or about personal gains of these [08:03] religious leaders, we have to question [08:05] it. We have to put measures in, and it [08:08] is the mandate of the state to ensure [08:12] that [08:13] South Africans and people and citizens [08:15] are protected from that. Particularly [08:17] marginalized communities such as the [08:19] LGBTQ, [08:20] women, children are protected from this [08:23] because it has the impact as I have [08:26] really documented in my book to weaken [08:29] public health responses and [08:31] interventions that are there to actually [08:34] better Yeah. the outcomes of this [08:36] country in different ways. Yeah. [08:38] Commissioner Xaluva, what is it that [08:40] organizations like yourself can do? [08:43] Particularly those with a statutory [08:44] obligation [08:45] in the space to ensure that people still [08:48] exercise their rights to religious [08:50] association and religious practice, but [08:52] do so in a way that doesn't endanger [08:55] their lives and livelihoods? [08:59] What have the South African Human Rights [09:01] Commission after years of monitoring and [09:04] observing what was happening, we then [09:07] recommended what in this country has [09:09] been done many times before, that there [09:12] must be [09:14] a a council [09:16] for the religious sector, [09:18] which will then mean there must be an [09:21] act [09:22] and [09:24] a council formed out of that act. You [09:27] have a council for lawyers, for doctors, [09:30] for everyone. You even have one for [09:34] traditional healers, for instance, in [09:37] this country. There's a council [09:40] for traditional health practitioners. [09:43] So, we are recommending that. I'm sure [09:46] you've also noticed the kind of [09:49] pushback [09:51] that some, very few, I must say, [09:54] I say it's just that they are louder [09:56] than the other millions out there who [09:59] are green [10:00] that there must be a council and we've [10:03] set up what we call a section 22 [10:06] committee [10:07] that this month late this month will be [10:11] going out to consult every religious [10:15] leader on two things on a code of [10:18] conduct and a peer review mechanism. [10:22] This council will consist of [10:25] religious leaders senior religious [10:27] leaders from across [10:30] the sector and we're saying since [10:33] Parliament has passed a similar [10:37] act [10:39] for traditional health practitioners [10:42] and there wasn't this kind of noise [10:44] about freedom of religion. [10:47] Traditional health practitioners have [10:49] freedom of religion because they [10:51] practice African traditional religion. [10:55] So [10:56] it has been done before. [10:58] But the resistance of you matching [11:02] Caluva must go. This section 22 must [11:05] stop. Without actually telling us how do [11:09] we stop a cult like church like this [11:12] one? There is no law in this country. [11:15] They'll keep telling you there are [11:17] enough laws. Don't try and create more [11:20] laws. When the Legal Practice Council [11:23] the other councils for doctors for [11:25] lawyers and social workers were set up [11:29] the same laws were there. [11:31] But because we're talking about an [11:33] ethical conduct [11:36] and a harmful religious practice. This [11:39] is a harmful religious practice and what [11:42] this [11:43] religious leader is doing [11:45] in my view is totally unethical. [11:49] Entertaining people and you say I also [11:51] stopped taking my medication. Stop [11:54] taking your chronic medication is just [11:56] not correct. Yeah. Puntso, [12:00] cults aren't always steeped in [12:02] religiosity. Sometimes they're just [12:04] anti-establishment. They want to [12:06] establish their own way of life in ways [12:09] that does make the normative distinction [12:10] between our way of living is better than [12:12] your the right way of living better than [12:14] yours. But it's not necessarily about [12:16] the reference to a deity of of of of [12:19] sorts. [12:20] Outside of religion or outside of [12:22] religious doctrine [12:24] what are the things that make you think [12:26] well such and such a movement might [12:28] actually be a cult? [12:31] So it is the French philosopher Blaise [12:34] Pascal who says and I don't quote me but [12:37] they somebody said something like men [12:39] never do evil so completely and [12:41] cheerfully when they do it [12:44] unless they do it when they're doing it [12:46] from religious conviction. And the [12:49] development over the past few years I [12:51] would say particularly over the past [12:53] 5 to 10 years particularly over the last [12:56] year we've seen how the religious right [12:59] influences from places like the US and [13:02] Europe have really posed a risk and a [13:06] threat to infringing on constitutional [13:08] rights not only in the US and in Europe [13:11] but here in South Africa. [13:14] And through the political the financial [13:17] influence they can have on [13:20] and [13:21] I'm using religious conviction [13:24] to drive [13:26] their agendas that are anti-women [13:28] anti-children anti-LGBTQ [13:31] and anti-many marginalized groups and a [13:33] lot of the progressive policies that [13:36] South Africa over the past three decades [13:38] of our democracy we worked very hard [13:40] for. [13:41] So when they have poorly designed [13:44] regulation systems [13:46] >> [clears throat] [13:46] >> these ideologies then become intrusive [13:50] selective and even punitive to minority [13:53] religions but to minority identities as [13:56] well. Yeah. So it's not about regulation [13:59] per se but it's about us as South [14:02] Africans being conscious [14:04] of the level of influence religious [14:07] conviction [14:09] powered with and coupled with power [14:12] and you know bad faith [14:16] excuse the pun can have on marginalized [14:20] people on the process of democracy as [14:23] well as on ways in which to exploit [14:26] people who are seeking validation [14:30] identity belonging community and all [14:33] these things that are human needs in [14:35] these communities. [14:37] We are seeing a regression of rights [14:39] across South Africa across the world [14:43] based on religious convictions being [14:45] used by powerful people to take their [14:49] agendas forward and we cannot [14:52] just sit back. Yeah. [14:54] >> Regulation has to take place. [14:57] Yeah. Well we're going to have to leave [14:58] it there. Thank you so much for your [15:00] time. [15:01] Puntso Vilane really do appreciate it as [15:02] well as the chairperson of the Center [15:05] for Religious and Linguistic Rights [15:06] [music] [15:07] Togo Qubeka Caluva speaking to us.