# Transcript: CRL Section 22 Committee — Official Launch (MDNtv)

**Event:** Launch of the CRL Rights Commission's **Section 22 Committee for Christians**
**Venue:** Rhema Bible Church, Johannesburg (host: Pastor Joshua McCauley)
**Source video:** "THE CHURCH UNDER GOVERNMENT CONTROL? | CRL Rights Commission's Section 22 Committee Sparks Debate"
**URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJBt61voTYw
**Channel:** MDNtv (People-Driven News) — channel_id UClWk6DQBYHf6rLP8VtMn0Xw — the same MDN News outlet that re-posted the BBC "this thing called Christianity" reel (see `73d`)
**Uploaded:** 6 October 2025 (event held on/around the 2 October 2025 launch date)
**Duration:** 2:22:44
**Retrieved:** 2026-06-22 via yt-dlp (English auto-captions) — full clean transcript below
**Views/Comments at capture:** 2,075 views / 3 comments

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## ⚠️ VERIFICATION STATUS — READ BEFORE QUOTING

The full transcript below is from **YouTube auto-generated captions (ASR)**. It is reliable for *locating* and *understanding* statements but contains transcription errors. Recurring garbles to watch for:
- "srise / Sarah Rights / Syrac / cyber rights / civil rights commission" = **CRL Rights Commission**
- "201 13" = **2013**; "GB activist" = **GBV activist**; "Sho/Sh Nazareth" = **Shembe Nazareth (ibandla lamaNazaretha)**
- Personal names are frequently mangled (e.g. "Musa Kleani Kulu / Kulu" = **Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu**; "May to Konazi Kuva / Toanazi Kaluva" = **Thoko Mkhwanazi-Xaluva**).

**Before any quote enters a US submission it must be verified against the audio** (Whisper, as was done for the BBC clip in `73d`). The Tier-1/Tier-2 quotes below were **Whisper-verified against the audio** (`base.en`, with a `small.en` cross-check) on 2026-06-22 — see the **Whisper verification log** after the candidate quotes. Anything not in that log remains **[AUTO — verify]**.

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## Why this video matters to the case

This is **primary-source footage of the exact event** the whole dossier turns on: the Section 22 Committee launch (SOURCE-CROSSREF Section 5; NEXUS Card 8). The CRL Chairperson **Thoko Mkhwanazi-Xaluva delivers the keynote in person**, and **every umbrella body on the committee pledges support on camera** — directly corroborating the COVID-Compliance research (Encl. 9): the state is building its regulatory architecture from large, hierarchical, publicly-registered partner churches (ZCC, Shembe/Nazareth Baptist, Rhema, SACC, TEASA, CAIC, MRM, Great Commission). The Plymouth Brethren — no name, no registration, no umbrella body, no clergy to license — are structurally the opposite of every body in that room.

The event also deploys, start to finish, the **"cult-abuse" framing playbook** the register already flags (Part 8 Strategic Note): open with extreme abuse testimony (a TB Joshua trafficking survivor), then present sector-wide registration/licensing as the obvious remedy.

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## Speaker map (attribution confidence)

| Segment | Speaker | Confidence |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00–32:00 keynote address | **Thoko Mkhwanazi-Xaluva**, CRL Chairperson | **High** — directs the deputy chair, speaks "as the commission," thanked by name by McCauley at 1:25 for "clarifying today" |
| 32:00–44:00 victim testimony | GBV activist & TB Joshua abuse survivor, host of TV show *Fake Pastors* (name garbled "CB/CBC") | High (self-identified) |
| 46:00–56:00 committee roll-call | **Deputy Chair** (introduces members); incl. the "45 million Christians" claim | High |
| 56:00–1:03:00 MC / housekeeping | **Pastor Gabe Mabalane**, programme director | High (self-identified) |
| 1:10–1:18 terms of reference | **Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu**, Section 22 Committee Chairperson | High (introduced as chair; reads ToR) |
| 1:18–2:01 member pledges | Each umbrella-body representative (see composition table) | High (each introduced before speaking) |
| 2:01–2:19 vote of thanks / closing | **Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu**, Section 22 Committee Chair | **CONFIRMED** — face-match: same clergyman (collar, glasses) as the explicitly-named ToR reading at 1:10:25; plus Caesar-callback + 3rd-person ref to the CRL chair |

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## ⭐ CANDIDATE QUOTES FOR THE REGISTER

Grouped by value. Each notes the existing card/theme it reinforces. Timestamps are from the clean transcript below.

### TIER 1 — CRL Chair, on the record at the official launch

**1. Christianity targeted first — explicit. [02:19]**
> "We gather here to launch what we call a **Section 22 Committee for Christians**. This time I should stress that we'll be going to other religions after this. **For now we are focusing on the Christian family.**"
- Reinforced again at [30:54]: *"From next week, we'll be talking to the Muslim community… we [are] going from religion to religion."*
- **Why:** The clearest on-record statement that the apparatus is being built **against Christianity first**. Directly supports the case thesis ([[case-thesis-race-is-vehicle]]) and the "this thing called Christianity" line (`73d`). Pairs with the Chair's own "this is the only religion where… this thing has been allowed to go on" (QUOTES-REGISTER Part 1).

**2. Power to investigate any church with no complainant. [04:36–05:23]**
> "We are asked to investigate any matter. **We don't need a complainant. We don't need anyone to say this has happened to me.** If we see that something is happening in the religious or cultural setting, we're asked to intervene."
- **Why:** State body claims power to investigate any assembly on its own motion — no victim, no complaint required. Strong due-process / arbitrary-power point for NEXUS Card 8 and the FOR SA "clear and credible threat" conclusion.

**3. The "religion is a regulated profession" doctrine, stated live. [09:59–10:46]**
> "Section 22 of the Constitution… every citizen has the right to choose their trade, occupation or profession freely. **The practice of trade, occupation or profession may be regulated by law.** While you have the right to choose to be a religious leader, it's a profession… you need to understand that this may be regulated by law."
- **Why:** The exact constitutional hook (Mercury 17 Mar 2026 quote in the register) — here from the Chair's own mouth **at the launch**, six months earlier. The licensing logic that the Brethren cannot survive (no clergy to license).

**4. Dismissing opposition as "noise." [30:09–30:54]**
> "**Never mind the noise out there. Don't listen to the noise out there.** Believe what we are telling [you]. This is for the religious leaders."
- **Why:** Same "loud minority" framing as the YouTube panel (Part 8). Opposition pre-emptively delegitimised at the official launch.

**5. The "no state regulation" denial — the official cover story. [30:54–31:39]**
> "There will be **no state regulation of religion**… Parliament will only move on the recommendations brought by these religious leaders… there can be no violation of freedom of religion. **Don't believe them when they tell you that.** No one is going to violate anyone's freedom of religion."
- **Why:** This is the public denial to **juxtapose against Prof. Musa Xulu's January 2026 resignation** — that the process was "a front to disguise a predetermined agenda of State control of religion." The Chair says "no state regulation" at the launch; her own committee chair resigns 3 months later saying the opposite. Devastating side-by-side.

### TIER 2 — Committee members (corroborate co-optation + link to Hate Speech Act)

**6. Rhema's Pastor Joshua McCauley — fear that preaching becomes "hate speech." [01:27:05]**
> "This is important to us that the **preaching and teaching of scripture… be protected and never deemed hate speech.** However, where… law is broken, fraud is committed and abuse takes place… [that] is completely unacceptable."
- **Why:** A committee insider explicitly voices the **Hate Speech Act** fear (NEXUS Card 5) — from inside the process. Shows even cooperating leaders saw the threat to preaching.

**7. McCauley — "a once Christian nation." [01:29:25]**
> "we will never ever in the future refer to South Africa as **a once Christian nation**."
- **Why:** A leading charismatic pastor naming, at the launch, the fear that Christian South Africa is being dismantled — useful country-conditions colour.

**8. Great Commission's Apostle Aaron — reveals the "self-regulation" script. [01:52:43]**
> "When **mama** [the Chair] told me… 'we are not coming to regulate the church. We are not government… You must regulate by yourself'… this is a kingdom of God, we cannot regulate by another kingdom."
- **Why:** Shows the Chair personally coaching members on the "self-regulation, not state regulation" line (cf. quote 5). Also documents how informal/relational the co-optation was ("without even calling by CRL").

### TIER 3 — Closing address (Prof. Musa Xulu, Section 22 Chair — attribution CONFIRMED by face-match)

**9. "The day is irreversible." [02:04:37–02:06:10]**
> "the day has come and the day is **irreversible**… I don't know how many times I tried to tell the chairperson that we're facing giants here and she said 'the river Jordan we shall cross'… We are entering the new land of promise where the Christian sector is going to **march back to where it belongs**."

**10. "It's happening around the world" — the global-model justification, names Angola. [02:17:08–02:18:39]**
> "what South Africa is doing here today… from maybe 2015 is being done around the world… **Churches and governments are working together**… I have studied what is happening in **Angola**… Nigeria… France… Switzerland… Japan… the unification church… even [the] United Nations is concerned. **So South Africa is on the right path.**"
- **Why (9 & 10):** The arc is stark — Xulu (attribution now confirmed) calls it "irreversible" and "the right path" at the launch, then resigns three months later calling it a "predetermined agenda of State control." The **Angola** reference independently corroborates the dossier's Rwanda/Angola model section (SOURCE-CROSSREF Page 2). The "march back to where it belongs" + "giants… river Jordan" militancy is quotable on its own.

### CONTEXT (not a quote, but evidentially useful)

**11. Deputy Chair — the legitimacy claim. [53:17–54:03]**
> "According to the 2022 census, 85.3%… of South Africans… identified as… Christian… The religious leaders in the Section 22 Committee… represent conservatively **over 45 million Christians**… anyone who says they've been shut out, tell them… there were over 45 million Christians who were with us."
- **Why:** The state's claim that 8 hand-picked umbrella bodies "represent" 45m Christians — exactly the consent-manufacturing the Brethren fall outside of.

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## Whisper verification log (2026-06-22)

Seven windows were sliced from the audio (16 kHz mono) and transcribed with Whisper `base.en`; the YouTube auto-caption (Google ASR) and Whisper (OpenAI ASR) are **two independent engines**, so agreement = high confidence.

| # | Quote | YouTube ASR | Whisper `base.en` | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | "Section 22 Committee **for Christians** … going to other religions after … focusing on the **Christian family**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** — both engines agree on every load-bearing word |
| 2 | "investigate any matter. We don't need a **complainant** … If we see something happening … we're asked to intervene" | ✓ | ✓ (heard "complain") | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 3 | "right to choose their trade, occupation or profession … **may be regulated by law** … individuals are regulated by law, **not the religion**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 4 | "Never mind the **noise** out there. Don't listen to the noise out there." | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 5a | "There will be **no state regulation of religion**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 5b | "Don't believe [it] when they tell you that. No one is going to violate anyone's freedom of religion." | ✓ | ✓ (`small.en` re-run) | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 6 | McCauley: "preaching and teaching of scripture … be protected and **never deemed hate speech**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 7 | McCauley: "never … refer to South Africa as **a once-Christian nation**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** |
| 9 | "the day has come and the day is **irreversible** … we're facing **giants** … the **river Jordan** … **march back to where it belongs** … madam chair" | ✓ | "giants / river Jordan / march back / madam chair" ✓; **"irreversible" garbled** ("a message will" / `small.en`: "in Vassar world") | "giants…march back" **✅ VERIFIED**; the word **"irreversible" = [AUTO — human listen needed]** (only Google ASR caught it cleanly) |
| 10 | "from … 2015 is being done **around the world** … churches and governments **working together** … I have studied … **Angola** … Nigeria … France … Switzerland … Japan … unification church … United Nations is concerned. So South Africa is **on the right path**" | ✓ | ✓ | **✅ VERIFIED** — including the **Angola** reference |

**Bottom line (updated 2026-06-22):** quotes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5a, 5b, 6, 7, 8, 10 and the Deputy-Chair "45 million" line are all confirmed against audio (`base.en`/`small.en`) and safe to quote. Quote 9 is confirmed except the single descriptor "irreversible" (Whisper garbled it; clip sent to James to confirm by ear). **Attribution of quotes 9–10 to Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu is now CONFIRMED** by face-match — the closing vote-of-thanks speaker is the same clergyman as the Terms-of-Reference reader introduced by name at 1:10:25.

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## Committee composition (on-camera) — corroborates Encl. 9

Announced 47:50–52:32. **Chair: Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu.** Member bodies:

> **Names below are raw auto-caption (ASR) renderings and are garbled/unreliable — do NOT cite a personal name from this table without confirming against the video.** The *bodies* are clear and reliable; the individual reps are not.

| Umbrella body | In Encl. 9 list? | Rep named — RAW auto-caption, unverified |
|---|---|---|
| Council of African Independent Churches (CAIC) | ✅ | "Rev. Gift Muerani" [ASR] |
| Shembe / Nazareth Baptist Church (ibandla lamaNazaretha) | ✅ | multiple — "Li Terren Muana / Rev. Joseph Silongo / Tabo Sami" etc. [ASR, garbled] |
| Moral Regeneration Movement (MRM) | ✅ | "Seth Mazibugo" [ASR — possibly Seth Mazibuko, the 1976 activist] |
| Rhema Bible Church | ✅ | **Pastor Joshua McCauley** (self-identified; well-known as Rhema's pastor) + "Dr. Seth" [ASR] |
| South African Council of Churches (SACC) | ✅ | "Rev. Oscar Matala" [ASR] |
| Evangelical Alliance of SA (TEASA/EASA) | ✅ | "Rev. Dr. John Maloma/Maluma" [ASR] (cited ≈4.4m evangelicals) |
| Great Commission (Western Cape) | ✅ | "Apostle Aaron Mackili" [ASR] |
| St Engenas / Zion Christian Church (ZCC) | ✅ | "Mr. Pete Leani"/"Mafeta" [ASR]; "Prof. Timber Mousia" in absentia [ASR] |

**Every body matches the Encl. 9 set** (CAIC, Nazareth Baptist/Shembe, MRM, Rhema, SACC, TEASA, Great Commission, ZCC). That is the reliable, citable finding: this video is on-camera proof of the *committee composition* the COVID-Compliance research reconstructed from documents. The Section 22 Committee chair is **Prof. Rev. Musa Xulu** (resigned Jan 2026).

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## YouTube comments (all 3 captured)

The user asked about comments as well. There are only three; two are substantively on-point.

**@garyvanvreden2229 (7 months ago, 1 like) — biblical church-autonomy objection:**
> "The CRL Rights Commission's report directly contradicts biblical principles by attempting to regulate and govern the church, which is God's domain… the church belongs to God, and He is its head (Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18). By establishing a peer review council to deal with spiritual matters, the commission is unequivocally overstepping its authority… this report is a human attempt to usurp God's authority and regulate His church."
- **Note:** An articulate public statement of the church-autonomy / Christ-is-head argument that mirrors the Brethren's own position (no arbiter of doctrine but Christ). Evidentiary weight is low (anonymous commenter) — usable only as illustrative public sentiment, not as a sourced quote.

**@ZozoOlifant (8 months ago, 1 like) — the double-standard point:**
> "You failed to regulate traditional healers 😂😂😂"
- **Note:** Captures the selective-targeting critique in one line — the state moves on Christianity but not on traditional healers (cf. the Chair's own "going from religion to religion… Christians first"). Illustrative only.

**@magatollesheila7180 (3 months ago) — intra-Christian self-criticism** (argues Christians failed to pray for the country, so others stepped in). Not useful for the case; recorded for completeness.

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## Full transcript (auto-captions, de-duplicated, timestamped ~45s)

> Source: YouTube English auto-captions for BJBt61voTYw, cleaned (rolling-caption duplication removed). ASR errors present — see verification note above.

[00:00:00]
Um, distinguished guests, his grace, the right reverend bishop Dr. Lee, esteemed religious leaders and fellow Christians, all protocol observed. I think the deputy chair has made it easy for me. I grew to all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Today we mark a significant milestone in our collective effort of creating safer and more accountable faith communities.

[00:00:47]
[Music] As we all know, religious institutions play a vital role in shaping the moral fabric of our society. However, the unfortunate reality is that some religious leaders have exploited their positions of trust, perpetuating harm and abuse. We need a mechanism that is designed to prevent such abuses and provide a framework for addressing them when they occur. They occur more often than maybe some of you

[00:01:32]
might think. We know what is out there and we know what is happening in churches across the country. We need a system that will enable religious leaders to hold one another accountable, promoting a culture of transparency, responsibility, and empathy. We need to work together to create a safer environment of congregants and ensure that our faith communities are places of healing, growth, and spiritual nourishment. We gather here to launch what we call a section 22 committee for Christians. This time I should stress that we'll be

[00:02:19]
going to other religions after this. For now we are focusing on the Christian family. I will fully explain how the structure we're introducing today to the Christian nation was conceived up to where we are today. The magic will happen on the walls here. We started with this process some months ago. As the deputy chair indicated, we've been in this commission. This is our ninth

[00:03:06]
month. Ninth month we started on the 1st of January 2025. We've already come a long way and we here today to say this is what we've worked on in the past 9 months. I'll first start by saying what were we created in terms of the objects of the commission were created to promote respect for and further the protection of the rights of culture religious and linguistic communities. It's all about rights and protecting

[00:03:51]
people in the religious sector in this instance in the Christian center to make sure that as they worship they are protected to promote and develop peace, friendship, humanity, tolerance and national unity among and within cultural, religious and linguistic communities on the basis of equality, nondiscrimination and free association. We're also the echo is doing magic here. We're also to foster mutual respect among cultural,

[00:04:36]
religious and linguistic communities so that we each respect one another. and then were given certain powers as the servers commission to make sure that all the expectations are fulfilled. The answer says the commission may do all that is necessary or expedient to achieve its objects including to one monitor, investigate and research any issue concerning the rights of cultural, religious and linguistic communities. We are asked to investigate any matter. We don't need a complainant.

[00:05:23]
We don't need anyone to say this has happened to me. If we see that something is happening in the religious or cultural setting, were asked to intervene. We're also asked to make recommendations to the appropriate open state regarding legislation that impacts or may impact on the rights of cultural religious and linguistic communities. What we are launching today will lead to us and the committee we're going to be showing you here the recommending to parliament

[00:06:08]
relevant legislative leadership that will help to c their abuses. We also asked to establish and maintain databases of cultural, religious and linguistic community organizations and institutions and experts on these communities. I've always asked her who knows how many religious leaders I in this country and I'm sure a reverend me as a member of parliament won't be able to tell me were supposed to compile this database and as someone said as they said it's like climbing Mount Everest without oxygen without any assistance

[00:06:53]
but we pray that this will happen this time. We're also asked to bring any relevant matter to the attention of the appropriate authority or organ of state and where appropriate make recommendations to such a authority or organ of state in dealing with such a matter and then the commission must report annually to the national assembly on its activities and the performance of of functions. That's what we do at the end of the chair finally. We go to parliament through the co portfolio committee and

[00:07:40]
we say what it is that we have done. We'll go back in history as I said we'll start with where we were and where we are now. Way back in 2017, those of us who were here back then and those of you who were here then may have observed from afar, but uh we made recommendations to parliament, the copter portfolio committee. We said that the constitution leaves scope for all kinds of beliefs and opinions. Even views which some may regard as extreme are allowed and should not be regulated. If I want to worship this paper, I

[00:08:27]
should be allowed to do that because constitutionally it is allowed views which lead to that views of human rights. For example, hate speech as indicated in section 16 to or to the violation of the law a cause for concern. Some of the views leave us wondering why these things would be happening. But part of it is to undermine religions that are not yours. is to look down upon religions that are not yours. But we say we said to

[00:09:13]
parliament that is not acceptable. And then we went to the constitution as the sovereign rights commission. We said what does the constitution say? The constitution says in the bill of rights, everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief, and opinion. While you exercise this right, you should not violate any other rights in the Bill of Rights. If it's right to life, you shouldn't violate it. right to human dignity. You shouldn't violate that. When you make your congregants to eat grass,

[00:09:59]
that violates their human dignity because human beings were not meant to be eating grass, especially the way they made them to eat grass. However, section 22 of the constitution, it stipulates that every citizen has the right to choose their trade, occupation of profession freely. The practice of trade, occupation of profession may be regulated by law. While you have the right to choose to be a religious leader, it's a profession. It's a calling. is a a carrier for other people. But you

[00:10:46]
need to understand that this may be regulated by law. So it's not a violation of the constitution where individuals are regulated by law, not the religion. There's a huge difference between me as Bishop Togan and the Bible and the religion and my freedom of religion. You don't have freedom to abuse people. You don't have freedom to fool people. I saw in one of the

[00:11:31]
videos the pastor said he's on his cell phone and is talking to God >> in heaven. >> It's amazing what you see out there. When you talk to God in heaven and everyone is so excited in your church thinking, you were able to dial up God's number and we are now conversing with God and we must all sit back and say it's their freedom of religion. If it's freedom of religion, then some of us don't want to be party to that because God would never humiliate his church.

[00:12:17]
>> God we believe in would never allow religious leaders to say God said to me last night. You must sleep with me. >> That's not the girl God prayed to. That's not the God we know. That's abuse. And it should be dealt with harsh. We then went to section 22 of the Sarah right act and we said um

[00:13:03]
what does it tell us because we're looking at how do we solve this problem. This problem has been with us if you remember since 201 13 whatever way back when things you know the advent of social media has created a very interesting situation because you can then know what's happening around the country if if we are sitting on a chair at home when we started seeing things happening out there in religious settings, we realize that Christians in particular are being violated.

[00:13:50]
>> They are being abused because when we go to church, we drop everything where we doubt. Our doubts are left behind. We go there with a clean mind. We go there saying this is our leader. He knows what he's doing and we will be safe. It's a safe space. When the church becomes an unsafe space, the srise commission is to do something. We are mandated by the constitution to protect the religious community. If we sit back and we say we're too

[00:14:35]
scared, they will say this, they will do this, they will threaten us, they will march, they'll do whatever. Then maybe we should ask ourselves how did we get this freedom? If all those freedom fighters had said we are too scared, we would be in this room today. We'll still be out there screaming and shouting, but we got here because other people risked it all. They lose their lives. They lose their careers. They risk everything. Other people have said to me, you know, this thing you study is career limiting. And I've said, well, I'm sure Mandela knew what he was doing. He never became a practicing lawyer. He went to Robin

[00:15:23]
Island. He said, "At least I won't be arrested. I'll still be out there. My career can be limited." But I think we need to stop being afraid. And that's why I'm saying that today because the leaders who have agreed to walk this path have left fear behind. And they've given us hope that there is hope in this country that other people can stand up and say enough and no more. And why he had to say thank you to them. who acknowledge the sacrifices that they are making by even being associated with us is a huge risk. People think those

[00:16:09]
people know they are not a safe friend to you. But we're saying it's all about God. It's all about Jesus Christ. This is about people calling themselves Christians. Because if you call yourself something else won't bother you. But once you say well I'm a Christian there standards you should maintain. One of them is that soon abuse people who trust you with their faith. We then look at section 22 of the S rights act because whatever we do has to be within the law.

[00:16:57]
Section 222 of the S commission says the commission um am I on the right page? These things are being blown away by the wind here. Okay. Um it says we may establish one or two. We've got options. They give us options in terms of um establishing committees. This is a very important part in case people think who just woke up one day decided to establish the section 22 committee. The SS section 22 says the commission

[00:17:45]
may establish one or more committees consisting of members only meaning commissioners who have been appointed by the president only or members commissioners and staff or other persons who are neither staff nor commissioners to assist the commission in the performance of its functions. So this section 22 committee we're establishing is one of those and we're allowed by the act to say we can bring people to come and help us fulfill the expectations that are in the constitution and in the act.

[00:18:31]
Section 222 says that a the commission must determine the functions of a committee. You'll hear the terms of reference later on today what this committee will do and we must appoint a member of the committee as the chairperson of the committee that the chairperson will be announced later today. We may remove a member of the committee at any time and may determine the committee's procedure. And then section 231A it states that the commission may delegate any of the commission's powers to a committee of the commission be

[00:19:16]
assign the performance of any of the commission's duties to any such member staff or committee. We are saying today we find the powers in both the constitution and the act to establish this committee. We're not on a thr of our own as we establish this committee. We've stuck to the law, done everything according to the law and we're saying we've come this far. Um I want to move away from that after explaining what this committee is where

[00:20:03]
it comes from to the place we are in today. We'll write we will run a very short video h about a man I respect a lot. A man who stood with us when things were very tough. Uh we will we remember him today. We dedicate today to him. Can we have the short video of this man? [Music]

[00:20:54]
I look back in my life, people thought, "Are you mad that you're going to do this ministry full time?" Because God will never call you without the ability to accomplish it. You've chosen of God, a royal priesthood, a holy nation. God's chosen you. And the best is still to come. Yes, you will have downs. Yes, you will have ups. But stay consistent, stay focused, and continue to serve. [Music]

[00:21:40]
He who dwells in the secret place of the most high shall abide under the shadow of the almighty. We will ser of the Lord. He is my refuge. He is my focus. He is my God. In him will I trust. [Music] Don't limit God in your life. You say, "God, you're able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think in Jesus name.

[00:22:26]
[Music] So many people don't agree many times with you, but you have to make the choice that you're going to make the choice to serve God and to do what he's called you to do. [Music] [Applause] We are at a stage

[00:23:13]
as the srise commission where we hand over this part of our responsibility to the Christian faith, the religious leaders. We do this in this church, the Rama Bible Church, which is a very significant venue for what we are doing today. We remember the unwavering support the Syrac Commission received from Pastor Ray Maui who left us to be with the Lord in heaven almost a year ago. As the civil rights commission, we honor the memory of a remarkable individual who left an indelible mark on the religious community in our country. He supported

[00:24:00]
the vision of an independent self-regulating mechanism despite objections from some quarters. This demonstrated the commitment to accountability, transparency, and the well-being of our faith community. We remember his compassion, wisdom, and dedication to serving the faith community. I dare say those would not be here today had you not supported the Sarah Rice Commission in this difficult road you are on. May Pastor Ray's memory inspire us to continue working towards a brighter future where faith and

[00:24:47]
integrity go hand in hand. We would like at this point to recognize pastor Josh McC who has proposed to the Sara Rights Commission that there's another side of this coin that while we struggle with those who do the wrong things. How about acknowledging that there are those who are doing the right thing, >> we tend we tend to do this even in our families. We pay too much attention to the naughty ones and we ignore those that are doing the good thing and doing the normal thing but we tend to give all our energies towards the ones who are not

[00:25:33]
here. So we hear you and we look into this seriously and we commit as the civil rights commission that we will look at those who are doing good work out there because there are more than those who are doing the wrong things. As we launch today the section 22 committee for Christians, we will go around the country to dialogue with fellow Christians on how to develop a self-regulating mechanism where Christian leaders can hold one another accountable. [Music] We want to say we expect

[00:26:18]
Christian leaders to hold other Christian leaders accountable just like doctors hold other doctors accountable, lawyers, teachers, etc. What you are proposing is not out of the ordinary. It's actually out of the ordinary that there's no one holding the religious sector accountable. That is what is out of the ordinary. holding them accountable is the normal thing to do. So as they go around the country and hold and develop this mechanism and a code of conduct we are hopeful that very soon they'll be going to parliament

[00:27:05]
to say this is what we're proposing as these leaders. This section 22 will be going round as soon as possible. So people who are not in the room today should not feel like we've been shut out. This is a launch and the work has to start and they will be going out to communities to every province to consult how do we make all of this to work correctly for the Christian faith and the believers of the Christian faith. When this code of conduct and the

[00:27:50]
self-regulating mechanism are in place, the abuse of congregants in religious settings will be seriously kept or even totally eliminated. The victims will have a place to report transgressions to fellow religious leaders. As we reach this milestone where we are now, releasing this courageous religious leaders to go to all provinces to consult, we say our farewell as the Zara Rice Commission knowing very well that they will come back to the nation with

[00:28:36]
excellent recommendations which they will table in parliament as a solution to solving spiritual ual transgressions in churches. Let me stress that the civil rights commission will not be part of these consultations and dialogues as we want to ensure that the leaders who have identified to do the work without interference of whatever kind from the cable rights commission. So I can guarantee people out there that you won't see any of us be it the executive of the cyber rights commission or the commissioners all you

[00:29:23]
will see as they go around is of course the leaders themselves who will be going around the country. The cyber rights commission secretariat will be supporting this structure. Of course the structure will vis you know tea coffee those types of things but that will be the secretarate. I can assure you we will not be there. I know some people out there might miss us like where are they? We were hoping that yeah and then we'll have something to say about this thing. We can assure you that

[00:30:09]
you see the secret only and the one participating they'll merely be making the staff to run appropriately. So rest assured we have no intention of interference. Never mind the noise out there. Don't listen to the noise out there. believe what we are telling. This is for the religious leaders. Self reggulation is about religious leaders saying not in our name. And it's about time. Hear those voices very loud as people say enough.

[00:30:54]
Don't do this anymore. So we won't be there. We will be doing other things. We'll be moving with other work. We've got a lot of things to do. From next week, we'll be talking to the Muslim community. As I said, we going from religion to religion. We want to assure fellow Christians out there that there will be consulted on these two important issues self regulation and a code of conduct. There will be no state regulation of religion. Let me [Music]

[00:31:39]
country with the kind of constitution we have. Parliament will only move on the recommendations brought by these religious leaders. So we can assure you that there can be no violation of freedom of religion. Don't believe them when they tell you that. >> No one is going to violate anyone's freedom of religion. [Applause] You will see these leaders when the deputy chairperson of the civil rights commission introduces them to all of you

[00:32:26]
here. As we take this critical step in the lives of Christians in South Africa, allow me to remember those who have been victims of abuses in churches and even those who continue being victims as we speak. At this point, I would like to introduce the Christian sector. She's an internationally recognized GB activist and the founder of Guan Foundation. It used to be one at some point. She currently hosts a show called Fake

[00:33:13]
Pastors. We have asked to be part of this meeting to represent the voices of people who have been sexually, spiritually, physically and emotionally abused in churches. She was one of the victims of the GP. [Music] You are Lord. You are worthy to be praised. We give you We give you glory.

[00:34:01]
We worship you Lord. You are worthy to be praised. [Music] Good afternoon everybody. It's an honor. That was me just greeting. I acknowledge you and I give respect to you.

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I give honor to the diversity of our community, nation, country. With regards to the religious sector, it's very diverse. It's very broad. Religious institutions play a vital role in shaping our community. Church needs to go back to being the safe place for people like me. Church needs to go back to being the safe place for people like me. The religious sector needs to go back into being the safe place. I'm just going to give you a glimpse into my world. Yes, if you've watched the BBC documentary,

[00:35:32]
I am one of the victims of the late Timmy Talk by TB Joshua, the BB BBC documentary that speaks of the disciples. I am on episode two and three. I was the first black South African to be human traffic to Nigeria to Timmy Church. The pain of not being believed. The pain of having bloggers amongst us who were trolling me and cyber bullying me. People who said you are lying. But God has vindicated me. Because when the documentary came out, you could see that it's people from all over the world who are singing one song, who are saying one thing. And what people don't

[00:36:17]
understand is that when the documentary was being um shot, we never trust each other. So we didn't know who was being interviewed. >> My pain has become the gain of many people. Me being given away to the church, the religious sector. I find myself today hosting one of the most popular shows called Fake Pastors. We say to pastors, don't run away if we say there allegations against you. Because in the little time that I've been shooting the show, we find that sometimes these allegations may not be true. We find that sometimes behind the pastor is a human being. You find that in your human nature, you did something

[00:37:03]
funny. You were in a relationship with somebody and they turn around and say you raped them. So work with us and don't work against us. Our God, a small God within the church needs to stop. Because then people are groomed to thinking that the closer I am to the man of God, it's a status quo. So people will do anything and everything just to get closer to the man of God. If the man of God says, "I need you now. You will leave your family. You will leave everybody to run to the man of God because your mentality now tells you that my God is that man." So, we applaud the CRL rights commission for working with us victims, people like me. We applaud the CRL Commission.

[00:37:53]
We applaud the CRL rights commission that has never turned us away. I remember when I first told my story of how I was groomed in Johannesburg under a church called Impact for Christ Ministries under a man who called himself a prophet, Philip Band. And then I was subsequently in Nigeria. Nobody chased me away at the CRL commission. Instead, they drew me closer. They wanted to understand. They wanted to know how do they groom you. I literally had to naked myself. Not not naked myself, but I had to put them into my story for them to understand what I've been through. And never has anybody within the CRL commission say,

[00:38:39]
"We don't believe you." >> Never has anybody within the CRL Commission say, "Your voice is not valid. >> I believe you." >> We are growing. We are living. But on a daily basis, when we see church hurt, we get triggered. Traumas arise. I want to speak to bloggers and people who are on social media for fun. We understand you want to get the rates, you want to get the numbers, you want to get paid by social media, but before you can troll us and cyber bully us and call us prostitutes of a man of God and call us women who want who has slept with the whole of men in South Africa men of God, take time to want to find out our stories. >> Don't just spread and smear us because

[00:39:26]
you want money, you want rates. But at the end of the day, we have seen that God is the vindicator of all. I stand here today saying, I do not trust any man that will come to me and say God says about you. >> Because the man I trusted that said God says about you ended up saying take off your panties. [Music] >> So I am in pursuit of finding this God on my own. I am in pursuit. [Music] >> We believe you. >> Sorry. >> I am in pursuit >> of finding God for myself because those

[00:40:12]
who called themselves men of God and people and children of God are the very ones that cyber bullied me when my daughter passed on last year in January from a raptured brain aneurysm. They are the ones that said your daughter died because you touched not my anointed. >> They are the ones who said your daughter died because you decided to tell the truth and expose the men of God who who who >> violated you. [Music] >> Change needs to happen within the Christian society. Change needs to happen within the religious society. I'm not impressed if

[00:40:57]
you call yourself a man of God, but on social media, you are trolling people like me. My daughter passed on from a raptured brain an aneurysm at the age of 10 in 2024 January 11. And it was the Christian community that turned around and said, "God is answering us. your daughter had to die because you exposed the late TV Joshua. >> So this came to me to say then what God do you guys praise and worship to? What God are you standing in front of the pulpit saying God lives if your God can punish and kill people who've been

[00:41:42]
victimized by men and women who claim to be his servants. That is why I say I'm in pursuit of knowing and finding this God. And if I come to your church on a Sunday, don't chase me away. Allow me to just sit and soak in the word. Maybe I'll have my own encounter one day. people like me who've been hurt in the hands of the church. We would love to see a society where our church leaders, our religious leaders are accountable to a body >> so that if you do something atrocious within your church, you are accountable to someone or something or an

[00:42:27]
institution. So that if you are alleged of something and you get arrested, you your preaching license must be taken from you. >> And that should mean you are not allowed to stand on stage and preach until you are found not guilty. Because what men of God do, you get arrested, you get bail, and you go on stage and you preach against the people that open cases against you, which causes secondary victimization to the victims. So we are thankful that the section 22 committee is being launched today. We are looking forward to seeing that our religious sector will be held accountable to something to a body.

[00:43:14]
We are looking forward to seeing that. And as I said my name is CBC >> and my voice is valid. >> You may not understand it but it happened to me. My voice is valid and I will never stop amplifying my voice. >> Don't silence me. Don't drag me and smear me on your on your social media because you are in aid of silencing me because the more you want to silence me, the louder my voice will become. Heat. Heat. [Music]

[00:43:59]
[Applause] [Music] Thank you so much uh Jefferson for the presentation. I'm sure now we are on the same page

[00:44:44]
and part of the item that you exposed all of us to chair h brings us brings us all together uh to the humanity and friendship and tolerance to soldier on in terms of building this country. If there are people who are correctly placed in building the nation is the religious sector. If they play their role, we have a better nation, better future. So pray for all of us as we march on on this journey. And thank you so much uh chap. I am going now

[00:45:30]
uh to request uh the deputy chair again to introduce the section 22 adult committee of the commission. In the process, he will also fill the gaps in terms of the guests who joined us after he made an announcement. Uh after the deputy chair uh I will then invite pastor cabalan [Music] uh who is known to all of us to direct the program on part two for me. You will see me around again.

[00:46:16]
[Applause] Thank you Dr. I'm a father and let me take this opportunity to acknowledge and also welcome uh pastor Peter who was with us yesterday and gave us a valuable input. I would also like to acknowledge and welcome our MPA and honorable Gala Mazo who is also the convenor of the commission for religion and traditional affairs in welcome

[00:47:01]
[Applause] as we announce the section 22 which will be doing all the work uh for us. Let me also thank uh all those that have been involved in ensuring that uh we get to this point uh of announcing uh the section 22 committee. I will start by announcing the chairperson of the section 22 committee, Professor Reverend Musa Kleani Kulu

[00:47:50]
and I will then introduced the members of the section 22 committee in alphabetical order of the umbrella bodies or church they represent. Next, please join me in welcoming Council of African Independent Churches, C AIC, Reverend Gift Muerani. Reverend Muerani.

[00:48:35]
[Applause] Next is Abui Nazareth Baptist Church. And please join me in welcoming to the section 22 committee the following Mr. Li Terren Muana, Reverend Miong, Reverend Zakaria, Reverend Bonga, Friend Zama, Reverend Tinkoi, Melvin Udu. Can we all clap hands for the

[00:49:28]
As we move on, please help me welcome Sheambe Nazareth Baptist Church in Pagama Shambe [Applause] [Music] Nazareth. Baptist Church is represented by Reverend Joseph Silongo as well as Tabo Sami. We also have the moral regeneration

[00:50:15]
movement which is represented by Seth Mazibugo. Please help me welcome Dr. Seth from the Remma Bible Church. Please help me welcome Pastor Joshua from the South African Council of Churches. Please help me welcome [Music] Reverend Oscar Matala [Applause] [Music]

[00:51:01]
from the St. Anas Zion Christian Church. Please help me welcome Mr. Pete Leani as well as Reverend Prince Tega from the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa. Please help me welcome Reverend Dr. John Maloma [Applause] from the great commission in the Western Cape.

[00:51:46]
Please welcome Apostle Aaron Mackili [Applause] from the Chambazar Baptist Church. Please help me welcome. [Applause] And lastly from the Zion Christian Church, please help me welcome in absentia, Professor Timber Mousia. These will be members of our section

[00:52:32]
22 committee that will drive the consultation processes across all provinces all regions of South Africa. I will now I will now >> request the chair to join me on stage. >> Also, Professor Reverend Musulu. >> I am sure I have no doubt in my mind that as this committee consults they

[00:53:17]
will adequately address that issue. My esteemed guest chair. >> Okay. Pass the message. >> Okay. According to the 2022 census, 85.3% which is 52.8 8 million of South Africans, they identified as members of a Christian denomination. The group of religious leaders in the section 22 committee,

[00:54:03]
they represent conservatively over 45 million Christians in this country. So, anyone who says they've been shut out, tell them that inside this room there were over 45 million Christians who were with us. So, we'd like to do something and hand over this Bible as a weapon to Reverend Professor G.

[00:54:50]
want to say this is all that we have to give you [Applause] and it will guide you and when the need arises when it gets very tough you will read it and you will pray and God will give you strength. We don't want to say to you it's going to be nice and rosy. This is a tough road, but we're here to say goodbye to you. And as we leave the stage with the

[00:55:35]
deputy chair, want to assure you that you won't see us as the section 22 committee unless you invite us. won't be unwelcome guests. We'll only come when you ask us to come. So we are now leaving the stage and handing over to the religious leaders to take over. [Applause]

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[Music] Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the hands of Pastor Kav. [Applause] >> Good afternoon. >> Okay, let me try that again. There's more atmosphere at West Park Cemetery. Good afternoon. [Music] My name is Pastor Gab Mabalan. All protocol observed. And before we carry on with the program, I just like to make an announcement. Uh just some housekeeping. Uh registration KR Z15

[00:57:14]
NW. Uh please attend to your car. The windows are open. And um in case you didn't know, the toilets are out of that door. Uh to my left uh your right, you'll see the two doors just as you open um that door. Uh I'd like to read you a story before um I carry on just to illustrate a principle that I've learned this morning. The story goes like so. Dear mom and dad, since I've left for university, I've been really bad with writing back and I'm sorry about that. Forgive my thoughtlessness. I'll bring you up to

[00:57:59]
date with what's been going on, but please sit down. Mom and dad, are you sitting down? Don't read any further unless you're sitting down. I'm getting on pretty well now from the skull fracture and concussion I got when I jumped out of my dormatory window when my dorm caught on fire shortly after my arrival here. I'm pretty well healed. I only get those six headaches sick headaches now once a day. Fortunately, the fire in my dorm and jump from my dorm was witnessed by a an attendant at the petrol station. He ran over and took me to the hospital and continued to visit me there. When I got out of the hospital, I had nowhere to live because of the burntout conditions of my room, but he was kind

[00:58:44]
enough to invite me to share his basement flat with him. It was kind of small, but it was cute. He's a very fine boy, and we've fallen madly in love and are planning to get married, but we haven't set the date yet, but it will be before my pregnancy begins to show. >> Yes, Mom and Dad, I'm pregnant. And I know you're looking forward to be the grandparents that I know you and I'll know you welcome the baby and give them the same tender loving care and devotion you gave to me when I was a child. The reason for the delay in our marriage is that my boyfriend has a minor infection that I carelessly quote from him. I know, however, that you will welcome him with open arms. He is kind. Although he's not well educated, he is ambitious. Although he's of a different race and

[00:59:29]
religion than ours, I know your often expressed tolerance will not permit you to be bothered by any of that. In conclusion, now that I've brought you up to speak, I want to tell you there was no dormatory fire. I did not have a concussion or skull fracture. I wasn't in hospital. I'm not pregnant. I'm not infected. And there is no boyfriend. However, I'm failing history and science. And I just wanted you to see it in perspective. And that is the operative word here this morning. It's the perspective that the CRL uh the very important perspective that the CRL has given us. I'm most probably the least smartest person in the room. But I've understood that the

[01:00:15]
CRL has not come to challenge doctrine, has not come to challenge practices, opinions, belief, and our identity. However, they are advocating for a peer review posture uh that deals with compliance, human rights, human rights abuse, fraud, illegality, and unscrupulous leaders. Um, on that note, I just want to congratulate, if we can give them another round of applause, those nominated for the section 22 uh committee. I'd also like to make a special um, you know, just note and honor you, C, uh,

[01:01:00]
for being so brave and standing up here and sharing your story. I think it was very important for you to share your story. um to to to to also just focus this meeting and help us understand what we are dealing with as the religious sector. So, thank you for your strength. Uh thank you for sharing your story. We pray for you. I know there's many many um like you out there who are survivors because you're not a victim, you're a survivor. >> And I just like her I just like us to honor her and just give her a round of applause as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You know, working with different religious and cultural uh groups is like planning a family ban.

[01:01:48]
Everyone brings something different. No one agrees on the music, but somehow it all works out. And before we begin, I just like to remind everybody, no decisions made in this room will be blamed on Pastor Joshua unless they are successful. Pastor Ray McCordi said in our freedom we need to protect the freedom of our others. South Africa gives us all the freedom to be ourselves. But the real test is whether we defend the same freedom for someone very different from us. The paradox of freedom and bondage reveals three fundamental truths about the nature of freedom. To fulfill our

[01:02:33]
purpose depends on being bound to any and by certain things. Freedom is not determined by the presence or lack of restraints but by that which our spirit is bound. And lastly, freedom is not merely the absence of external control but the presence of self control. So in our freedom, it is vitally important for us to protect the freedom of other people. And on that note, I'd just like to welcome the next speaker on the program who's going to be reading the terms of reference. Um, and his name is Professor Musa Kulu. Please welcome him to the podium.

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[Music] I greet you all in the holy Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Amen. We glorify >> We glorify your holy name. How will I come? We glorify We glorify your holy name.

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[Music] [Applause] We glorify we glorify your holy name [Music] [Applause] [Music] in the prayer. We just bow our heads and start praying each one. Everyone knows what this about.

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We accept this commission that is happening here today in the manner of the great commission of Christ the Lord our savior. Matthew 28 [Music] 19 to 20 [Music] only you would have made the CRL aware and active in ensuring that this happens. We pray for the committee. We pray for the commission. We pray for church leaders. Pray for everyone in the faith of Christ

[01:05:40]
that this happens in our country and contributes to our nation. Let church arise once more. Let the church of Christ arise once more and take the place for which it was designed. Let the self important in the church disappear and only Christ show up. [Applause] >> We glorify. We glorify your holy name.

[01:06:26]
[Music] We glorify. >> We glorify your holy name. [Music] We glorify. >> We glorify [Music] your holy [Music] [Applause] cry. [Music] And you know we worship you my lord. You are with me.

[01:07:18]
>> You are you are [Music] [Applause] weship my Lord. You are worthy to be. >> Yes, you are. [Music] We worship you. I love you. [Music] >> We give you honor. >> We give you all

[01:08:07]
glory. We worship you. We give you [Applause] [Music] worship. [Music] You are worthy to me. We give you all. We give you all [Applause] [Music] we worship you Lord. You are worthy to

[01:09:00]
be. >> We sing our Lord. We sing our Lord. See [Applause] to me [Music] who sing [Music] to Oh my god.

[01:10:05]
[Music] to just see. [Music] And Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son

[01:10:51]
and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to the very end of page. Amen. Uh good morning fellow Christians. All protocol observed. It's an honor to stand here in front of you with a small task of reading the terms of reference which becomes very important because terms of reference are some kind of command that says you go and do this and this and in the end of age and time when you come back to report to the C CL rights commission

[01:11:39]
to parliament Most of all, the Lord we know will be with us throughout this walk. I've never thought that it's an easy walk. It's never going to be. But with all the dedicated Christians, sons and daughters of the Lord supporting this mission, >> it's done. The Lord shall reign forever and ever. The CRL rights commission has explained itself and my role is to read the purpose of the committee in relation to the functions that we have been given for now. I know that

[01:12:25]
when the the committee meets there will be others wanting to add things and so on. It has also been clarified that we're not going to do doctrinal issues. The mission is to also protect the rights of the believer who comes to your church, trusting in you and hoping that you are also trusting in God. And then they give all your heart to the pastor and they were say the rest is history. The committee performed the following functions. I started life as a school teacher. So

[01:13:11]
I'll read very slowly. Conduct consultations. It's a take home that one consultations with all religious sectors and organizations throughout the country on demand the Christian sector looking at possibilities we're not saying it has been done and when consultations happen when you go to a consultation session you bring also your views. It does not mean that your views will be

[01:13:57]
taken by everybody as is. Usually what happens the final report becomes the sum total of all the inputs that have been made. We have to be very clear on that. the possibility of a legislative framework that provides for the establishment of some religious practice council. I said some form of people also know about something called omuds man you know in the country representative of all sectors registration of religious institutions registration of practitioners

[01:14:42]
um you know in in the studies that I've done recently I have been reminded about what Christ said for example when it comes to the issues of taxation. So they came to complain that uh they were being uh forced to pay tax and maybe because he was powerful he could uh deal with that issue. Then he said they must show him whose head was on that money. They said it is scissors. Then he said, "If you I paraphrase my follower, give Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give the Lord

[01:15:28]
what belongs to >> what belongs to the Lord." Hallelujah. It's in the Bible. And the issues of self-regulation and the issues of uh writing down some kind of code of conduct are found in the scriptures. [Music] If you go back to the the the position of the bishop for example, many will know better that they had to be some some kind of person. Yeah. And if you go back to church history, all those uh creeds that were created over period of time all had an intention to say

[01:16:16]
be clear about your belief system so you don't mix things. Registration of religious practitioners, development of a code of conduct. And for the purpose of these terms of reference and intern legislative framework, the religious practitioners refer to um individuals who engage and in facilitate religious practices within the community of faith. The facilitators they can be formally trained, ordained or may be recognized for their

[01:17:01]
spiritual guidance and experience. That is some of them are known as priests, some are pastors, some are reverence, some are apostles called fivefold ministry and there could be more. and other Christian spiritual leaders. The meaning of this is that the CRL has not given a document that says follow this. It says there must be consultations throughout the country and consultations means that those doors

[01:17:46]
remain open for everyone to come in and make their inputs so that eventually there's a report that can be presented to the Christian community as well as to parliament. And then of course the issue of legislation is simply that if it's not legislated it is not enforcable. What I know though is that churches are already having internal mechanisms of um self-regulating but that possibly will be made to be slightly more universal to allow for people like to be had. I thank you for listening to me. God bless all of you.

[01:18:38]
[Music] Thank you, L. Um the next item on the program, I'd just like to uh call representatives um of the people who represent the section 22 committee uh to come and really speak um about their commitment to the process. Uh there's a long list of you and uh we'd like to be out by Christmas. So um if you can kindly keep it short.

[01:19:23]
I'm going to call um three of you and then you can come kindly stand next to each other and as the member the one member has kind of uh spoken you can then also share your comment. Uh, professor from the section 22 chairperson's uh, professor, would you still like to come up? Um, I mean, we know you committed, right? >> Um, I'd like to call Reverend um, Professor Leia. Um, the the Council of Africa from the Council of African Independent Churches. I'd like to call Reverend Gift Muerani

[01:20:08]
and one member from the Ibusheni Nazareth Baptist Church. I'd like to call Mr. Lee Zui Terren Mulani. Please come up gently. [Music] Yeah. No particular order. Please speak from the heart. Uh because I'm the oldest,

[01:20:53]
so I can do that. Thank you very much. uh members and also to say thank you for the trust and everything that accompanied it. Say thank you. When kite was established in around 1978 by the the late archbishop makubo and others and the rest be not there arbishop due to French they are the ones who said the African voice should be amplified so that the voice of the church can be

[01:21:38]
together. So KA is a full member of the South African Council of Churches. So we account to SACC. We account to ourselves. We are members of the World Council of Churches Central Committee. We we form part of AAC which is in Nairobi. So we have structures where we report at a certain time. So this year we'll have our conference in Nairobi with other indigenous African churches. So we will report about this important systems that have been built in place to say there are systems in place to making sure that the integrity of the religious the body of Christ is

[01:22:24]
kept intact. So we promise I got my deputy who is here who will be the chair of the committee that will he will be setting up structures in the nine provinces to making sure that this message is going on. So thank you very much. [Applause] Thank you members and through Christ who gave us strength and through our knowledge and skills and ability, we will journey with the South Africans to create safe space if in the churches to protect the human rights based on the

[01:23:12]
anthropology, the image of God which is most important. Thank you very much. [Applause] Thank you. Good afternoon. I get all present here in your different levels of rain within the country. I stand here as already stated, I'm Liz from the Nazareth Baptist Church of Shen. I stand here as the member of the executive council of the church and the secretary general of the same. I wish to put forth my undertaking that firstly having been appointed by the leader of my church back at home that is

[01:23:59]
my primary appointment here by I wish to thank him in absentia for having trust in me. Secondly, I wish to recognize uh my investment on the committee section 22 committee by the commission. I thank the commission for the initiative. I wish to make an undertaking not to only those that are present here but also the members of my church back at home to say that we will have a commitment to stand for what is right and good for them and uplift and promote the spirit of the constitution of the country. Thank you.

[01:24:47]
I'd like to call from the Sh Nazareth Baptist Church and this following name Nazareth Baptist Church even this name I love this name Reverend Joseph beautiful names um and I'd like to call Pastor Joshua McCauley [Music]

[01:25:33]
Good morning everybody. [Music] I recognize the incredible amount of people represented here today and all protocols observed, leaders of our faith, leaders within government, leaders within all Christian structures. I recognize you today. I want to thank uh the chairperson, Miss M. Toanazi Kaluva, I hope I said that right, for uh clarifying today that it is government's desire to continue the spirit of separation between church and state. That government desires that the Christian faith is recognized, respected,

[01:26:19]
and that our right to worship our Lord and Savior is protected in our constitution. We recognize that in Ephesians 4 11, it tells us that Christ himself gave us the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and the teachers to equip the body for service so that the body of Christ will be strong, built up, function in unity and faith in the knowledge of Jesus, becoming mature, attending to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, recog Recognizing this mandate for us as the church to function in the five-fold for the edification and upliftment of all. We recognize today that in your own

[01:27:05]
documentation, it says that you recognize to protect the right of cultural and religious linguistic communities to promote and develop peace, friendship, humanity, tolerance and national uh uh unity among within cultural, religious and linguistic communities on the basis of equality, non-discrimination and free association and to foster a mutual respect among cultural rel religious and linguistic communities. This is important to us that the preaching and teaching of scripture and the fulfillment of the mandate of the great commission in our Bible be protected and never deemed hate speech. >> However, where human rights of people in

[01:27:51]
particular the vulnerable women and children where law is broken, fraud is committed and abuse takes place. This is a major concern and completely unacceptable. [Music] The needs of our vulnerable are key to us. It doesn't only need our concern as religious leaders. It needs our commitment to stop it. On that note, something was noticed today and that was something that is a relevant conversation. One of the things I believe I will table in our first conversations and dialogues is a representation of our precious woman in our leadership in the CRL. I am married to a beautiful wife who not only is my wife but leads Rama Church

[01:28:38]
with me and who herself has an important calling and role within the body of Christ. Women are key, essential, cherished and should be protected and anointed within structures. So, thank you. And this is the purpose of dialogue, conversation, and allowing us to come together to collaborate for the better of our nation. We serve a generational God. And today, I thank you for honoring my father whose place I stand in today, who set me up to continue the legacy. And I want to say that I believe our mandate is not just to celebrate what God has done in South Africa as the Christian church, but that we will never ever in the future refer to South Africa

[01:29:25]
as a once Christian nation. But that as we who believe in a generational God will recognize it is our responsibility of the Christian church to come together to collaborate, work together for the betterment of our churches and for the betterment of the future generations that in our congregations they are protected, in our congregations they are lifted and promoted. And that in closing, as my dad said in his last sermon, whilst here on earth, by the way, we'll be celebrating his graduation to heaven next week, one year. He said in this pullpit that the best is yet to come. And I believe as we collaborate as the Christian faith and

[01:30:11]
consult, we work together for the better of this nation. And I do pray that not only does government regulate in a conversation about our churches breaking the law, but they not only regulate where we break the law, they actually recognize where we are active in building this nation. And that in recognition, we can talk together about collaboration to help the church. Many pastors struggle financially serving poor communities could use our help, could use infrastructure and resource. And I commit myself and Raymond today for the better of our nation and for the better of our faith in our nation.

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city. Amen. [Music] Thank you so much. [Applause]

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language found. Butch. [Music]

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Where can I can see. [Music] ambassador. Thank you.

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Yes. [Music]

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Hallelujah. Amen. foreign. [Applause] Say we say colomi.

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SAP go [Music] worthy all we might

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Oh, glory away. [Music] Jesus.

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All of me for you. [Music] Highest [Music] you know [Music] Oh my

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god. Oh my. Oh my god. [Music] I might Oh. [Music]

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Thank you. [Applause] Amen. [Music] I love that name. Sounds like a song. Those of you who don't know what means, it's that which swallows others. Sounds like a song. I'd like to call up from the moral

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regeneration movement, Mr. Seth Mazugo from the South African Council of Churches, Reverend Oscar Mada uh from St. Agnes Zion Christian Church, Mr. Peta, please come up [Music] [Applause] this first. Some of us who fought for this freedom, who went at a very early age to prison and got detained, stayed in jail. When the very first thing that we did in 1976 when the police were killing us as children was to run to the church was to run to be protected and to

[01:40:24]
be provided for by the church. But now lately we run away from the church and that's said for the democracy of this country. MLM espouses values that act as a spiritual glue in society irrespective of our morals, traditions, ideologies or political party affiliations. We base these morals on professor Ky's definition of morals when he says morals are beliefs people have about right and wrong are also about their aspirations for their lives. In 1997, colleagues,

[01:41:12]
Nelson Mandela warned us, and by the way, moral regeneration movement came out of the cry from Nelson Mandela when he said, "We need the RTP of the soul." The church now needs the RDP of the soul. That's the message. And Mandela counted some of these um unethical behaviors colleagues. He counted corruption, criminality, tax evasion, venality, theft, disrespect of human life, for fraud, rape, and the abuse of women and children. And this is still happening. And our call to all, we are

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not a church. Let me pronounce that. We run across uh I was saying to the chair that now uh when they go to the Muslims next week we are going to be there and then we're everywhere we run across not only religious bodies but also institutions of higher learning and other civil society organization in brief. The church needs the RDP of the soul in the healing name of our lord, our savior Jesus Christ. Amen. >> On a lighter note, h when released I was doing stand

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same stage with you. >> I used suggest your songs. uh a lot has been said by UPRO who represented the SAC but there's only one reason I'm standing here yesterday when we were having the plenary [Music] I was looking around the room and I realized actually I was the youngest and I want to stand here and say the Sic believes in generational mix >> hence some of us are part of that national executive committee. Number two, we want to allay fears from a number of people out there who feel that government is taking over this sector. I want to emphasize that as

[01:43:31]
we are involved and this will be self regulating and there will be nothing about us without us. We believe that this process will present a balanced and a transparent as well as the accountable way of promoting as well as protecting the religious uh rights of our people. Lastly, h I was touched when I saw that woman and many others who are coming forward who have been abused in our sector such as Zundi and we are here to support you also as GPV activists and I believe that brothers and sisters we can change our nation and our lives shall never be the same again. Thank you so much

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everyone. [Music] I will start by greeting uh my bishop his grace bishop Dr. Anas Kan of the Z of the St. right church who founded this church in 1924. And I pass my greetings to the right, Reverend Bishop Bil Hanyani of the Zion Christian Church. And I want to pass my greetings to the chairman of the CRL Commission, May to Konazi Kuva.

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And I want to pass my greetings to the CEO of the CRL, Dr. Edward, Mafaza. And I want to pass my greetings to the deputy chair of the CRL, Prince George Matangu. All other bishops, reverence and priest, all protocol observed. [Music] The St. Angelo Zion Christian Church pledged to the section 22 Sierra Rights Commission. We members of the committee, the St. Angla Scientist and Church hereby express our unequivocal support

[01:45:48]
for the initiative to establish a consultative committee for the development of a coherent and effective regulatory framework for the religious sector of South Africa. We recognize the vital importance of this undertaking. The religious sector is a cornerstone of our national life, providing spiritual guidance, moral formation, and critical social services that contribute to the well-being of all South Africans. We believe that a collabor a collaborative process between the government and religious organizations

[01:46:35]
is essential to create regulations that protect the constitutional rights of all citizens, ensure the sector's integrity and promote a safe and ethical environment of all congregants. The St. Angla Z Christian Church as a member of the committee set up by the culture religious linguistic commission in terms of section 22 of the commission for the promotion of protection of rights of cultural religious and linguistic communities hereby pledges to discharge its duties as determined by the CR commission to assist it in

[01:47:20]
fulfilling the objectives. which includes but not limited to promoting respect for and protection of the rights of cultural, religious and linguistics communities. The church pledges to partake in committee meetings and all other activities of the committee that may be scheduled from time to time when feasible. I thank you. [Applause] I'd like to call up Reverend Dr. John Malum Maluma uh from the great commission Apostle Aon Mi and from Nazareth Baptist Church

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tend [Music] Good afternoon uh brethren. I greet you all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I represent the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, a body that is a fellowship of close to 4.4 million

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evangelicals in this country. And I want to believe that uh it is our sector that is that normally dominates the courts for wrong reasons. And as a body we are committed to the process that has been initiated and we want to believe that uh it comes at the right time. And for those who may want the scriptural reference for why we have to do this, I just want to read verse one of James chapter 3. It says, "Not many of you should become teachers or pastors

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or leaders, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. >> We who teach, who pastor, who lead will be judged more strictly." And those of us who have received the call and accepted the call, we can't abandon it and allow it to go by chance. If God is going to hold us accountable, I think we got the right to also hold ourselves accountable. Uh if you read further uh the context uh James talks about the power of the

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tongue, how it can sway, how it can destroy. And listening to my sister speaking here, h it looks like uh the tongue works sharply to deceive to to abuse and that is why I think it's our responsibility as the church to intervene h and I'm excited and I think we're excited as TISA that this process will be run exclusively by the leaders as it has been explained and we're looking forward to working together and trust that at the end of the process we'll come up with a product that we can all be proud of. Thank you very much.

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>> Good afternoon everybody in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Aron Mi, I am the president of the great commission. without even calling by CR because to the church unite is not come from even CRL it's coming from God every pastor here understand me when I'm saying Jesus Christ was praying for something like this when he's leaving

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the church he prays from his father to say father those what you giving to me they must be one he didn't say I'm just here maybe neighbor [Music] now we as a great commission when you see cr commission listening to them this is a small commission than great great commission Then it was easy for us to understand what is the commission means. Commission means somebody telling you you must do this. Go ye therefore

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make disciples our lives. We understand that very clear. When mama told me to say we are not coming to regulate the church. We are not government state to regulate the church. You must get great regulate by yourself to stop what's I said to her mama this is coming from the Bible >> no one will say to us somebody must come outside and then tell you what to do you we as a this is another kingdom this is a kingdom of God we cannot regulate by another kingdom I don't know why the pastor has got a problem for this because it's Clear. I was asking

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mama twice. Mama, may I I hear you clear? You said let us create let us graduate ourselves. Not the state and say mama my head is up. I will go with you because we are supporting. What I want to say thank you so much Johannesburg. I'm worried because now you're launching this at Johannesburg. I think everything must start Cape Town. is in this one is starting here. But I want to say to you, thank you so much. We are supporting to regulate. We are we are going going to go all around the nine provinces in in South Africa to making sure every pastor, every believer

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understand what we are not here to sell anything that maybe to try to No man, no pastor. I just want to say let us listen the Bible God of Bible telling us everything what are you doing in your church everything is there we can regulate even not calling you because the Bible is already regulating those one that are doing that thank you so much for come inviting me to be part of [Applause] [Music]

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Prophet Isa Nazareth Baptist Church. [Music] Why

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participate? [Music]

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established. What is South African

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[Music] Find ground process. I'd just like to acknowledge another member of the section 2 um committee in absentia from the Zion Christian Church uh Professor Ta Lucia. He's not um with us this uh afternoon. Um and next up is

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the secretary of the church. He's represented by the secretary of the church, Mr. Mafeta. Maybe if you can come up, sir. Did I pronounce that correctly? My ma [Applause] [Music] Yeah, thank you so much program director [Music] through his grace the reverend bishop

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Dr. B present here today and then the leadership from the Zion St. Z Christian Church, the honorable chairperson of the CR Commission, esteemed members of the CR management and disimich guest and fellow leaders. Good afternoon. uh program director is now 12:48 and then maybe I only have one and a half minutes or two. So on behalf of our representative from the Z prison church

[02:00:02]
in the section 22 at committee professor Timb who unfortunately could not be with us today due to prayer work commitments. I would like to express our commitment to this process. We pledge to actively participate, engage and contribute to the discussions and decisions of the committee. We are particularly committed to the addressing to addressing the the sketch of the gender based violence in our community and to promoting a culture of respect, dignity and safety for for all. We also condemn the actions of free pastors who exploit and abuse the trust

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uh of their fellow followers and we commit to working with other stakeholders to uphold the integrity of our religious institutions. We look forward to working collaboratively to achieve the objectives of the committee and to yielding positive outcomes for our communities and the nation at large. Thank you, chair. Thank you so much to all the section 22 um committee members. Um, uh, the road ahead is very long. Uh, but judging by the decorum and the peace

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that's in this room, I'm pretty excited um that people are going to put their heads together to ensure the safety uh of our people. On that note, I'd just like to welcome um the chairperson to give us the vote of thanks. [Applause] [Music] Uh thank you very much once more uh to be here. I thought I greeted everyone and all protocol was observed at that

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time when I was in spirit. Now having given God what belongs to God, I now look for Caesar uh which is the vote of thanks. I must say emphatically that the the committee is going to move around the country very quickly. There's nothing to fight about. Zero. nothing at all to fight about and all of us have heard from the members of the committee

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the commitment and pastor George spoke somewhere said maybe this should be opportunity for the Christian church to regroup and go back to its mandate of the great commission. We know that during the liberation struggle, there were there was a there was a lot of things to do. So if you're a pastor and the children start running to your church, you've had to do something. But then there was freedom in 1994. Once that mission was accomplished, I

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think my pastor, you were right. The time is now to go back to the mission. I'd like to thank the entirety of the CRM. Um, I love the CRN a lot somehow because of the cultural, then the religious, then the linguistic aspects of it. Those kind of rights. I embrace all three of them. I don't have to say why, but they are very important. They are central to nation building. As we build our nation now in the transition from 1994

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to the year usually these transitions take 50 to 70 years. Uh I know some people say 30 years has been too long and so on. I'd like to thank also the and importantly the chairperson. You know when Christ moved around and he he went to some places and appreciate some people and he would say I've never seen faith like this. Some of us doubting Thomases didn't really believe that this day would come. And the advantage of being a doubting Thomas is that you take no responsibility.

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But the day has come and the day is irreversible and that chairperson has been very consistent that it is going to happen. You know when Joshua sent some people to go and check the other side that he never beg another before we go to fight with them and some came back and say hey those are giants very big we can't I don't know how many times I tried to tell the chairperson that we're facing giants here and she said the river Jordan we shall cross and today the that you're done has been crossed.

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We are entering the new land of promise where the Christian sector is going to march back to where it belongs. We thank you madam chair. Thank you. I'm even afraid to mention your your first surname because uh I don't know where he is. He may be not very far from here. Dr. Raj, you come from Kazak. You didn't say him. And we we thank also the opening prayer, Reverend Mura. [Music]

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Oh, amen. Hallelujah. When I saw in God say she singing in Sutu. I said maybe I should quickly go to mommy to fetch my legacy and start expressing myself please the Nazareth Baptist Church in your entirety. We thank all of you. You know, I saw one of you yesterday and I said you beginning to look like your your uncle say I said amazing what's happening and he said I'm blessed. It's because I'm here and I'm representing

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him. He's likely to to to to compose a song from the look of things. about Ky the chairperson here in the first place was Dr. the head of my father. I've called all the commissioners. I think I did. So, and I won't call you by name because I only know few of you and sometimes I haven't met most of you. So, I I I may make mistakes. I just want to say also

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scripturally speaking those that have been chosen here in the section 22 committee are not chosen because they are perfect. God never chooses people based on perfection. All of them will have some little weakness here and there. And God likes using such so that when he turns them around, the glory goes to him. Hallelujah. [Music]

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No one is perfect here. All of us here, all of us have got our own weaknesses. I'd like to thank also the deputy chairperson, the prince, the coolest man on earth. If he had grown up in the 70s and 80s, he would be known as cool and guy of South Africa. It's always very cool. Very cool. Very very cool. I saw the Rama worship team. You guys are good. When are they visiting my church

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very soon? Thank you. There was a second chairperson. Now whenever we look at each other because I I spent life as a as a as a professor of music before I became a theologian. So he thinks that I'm thinking what he is thinking that he is he is going to create. TKC TK these are the people who enjoyed our liberation post 1994 through music. Amen. There was no music.

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He recruited all white people. Pastor Josh, the section 22 at home committee, I've spoken about you. You are not perfect. I know when you sit there, you're going to fight a lot and you're going to start walking driving around the country and you'll be fighting uh with stuff for not organizing your travel time and all of those things. But at the end it is the Lord who has given you this assignment and he always looks for the weakest. How bad is you Moses? Look at Moses. Couldn't even joke.

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Couldn't even joke. And then he was given assignment. He ran away. And for 40 years he was still running running away from the assignment. Eventually the Lord said, "Come here." And you look at David, he broke all the laws of the terminal. If you say the Lord is on the other side, I'm going there. And even he would go there and eat lean bread which was not allowed to be eaten by anyone not from the house of Levi. and you can look at your favorite apostle Paul. So the Lord always looks for these weak people and he sends them because weak

[02:12:28]
people have one advantage. They obey and they obey. So I thank all of you. You would be thanked in many places but in other places you'll be chased out. and leave. But when you go into anywhere, you must say peace be with you. So your mission is to spread peace in the name of the Lord our savior. And then of course I also need to thank now lastly

[02:13:13]
the RMA church and the legacy of the father which is being kept very well by the son and the wife and the congregate. My brother, I heard a story about what last happened here. I was still living somewhere I I must say maybe England. I know England is too familiar. I was living in Bosnia. So this church said in the in the manner of Jesus Christ, you know, when he restored Peter and all those people, let's go back to the crime scene and restore this mission.

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If you had been weak, you would have run away and said, "No, no, no. I don't want to have anything to do with these people. They are too." But you said, "No, come here." I've never seen such peace as I am experiencing in this house today. And clap your hands. How? How? I wonder if madame chair slept but because she she kept thinking yesterday that there would be no peace and I couldn't sleep myself thinking of calling some host dwellers dwellers to

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come with your no and restore peace. This is perfect peace. Perfect peace. It's done. As for my single self, I'd like to thank the CRL for having confidence confidence um in our leadership. as um I once studied uh for my first PhDs shamber church and I was very happy when

[02:15:34]
they signed here dance this morning and I said those findings some 30 years ago are confirmed they combined the principles of Christianity but they still very much rooted in Africa I like that it makes Christ to be very much accepted with those words s [Music] I like to say to you because I'm I'm standing with my brother here. Never give up. Never give up.

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I like your spirit. Everyone likes your spirit. >> And if all those who have been afflicted in one way or the other such has happened to you and even worse in other cases would be as brave as you stand up, tell your story because one of the biggest problems St. part. One of the biggest problems with our churches when you report to the church structures that you have a problem

[02:17:08]
with the holy pastor or whoever, the first thing that they always do is to isolate you, view you as satanic and some will even encourage you to leave church. Now, a body like which is likely going to happen here would be a place for people like yourself to go and cry. I must also lastly stress that what South Africa is doing here today, this from this year going through what maybe from 2015 is being done around the

[02:17:53]
world. the whole thing of ensuring that I heard things about fake pastors. I heard things about spiritual transgressions. I had people talking about even the explain which is the cards around the world. Churches and governments are working together to get them so that they can protect the rights of the believers. So what you're doing here is not not some thumbs up or some some crazy CR it's happening around the world. I have studied what is happening in Angola. I have studied what is happening in Nigeria. I have studied what is happening in France. I have studied what is happening in Switzerland. What is happening in Japon? You will

[02:18:39]
remember the unification church and all of those things. So it's not a crazy idea then somebody slept and then how do I shake that it's happening around the world and even United Nations is concerned. So South Africa is on the right path to stand up thanks to the I'll see for you. >> Um, as we close today, I'm reminded of

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something very South African. We might not all agree on the best way to cook up, but we all agree that it should be on the table. >> Amen. We are gathered around one name, and that's the name of Jesus. It's always been about Jesus. It is about Jesus, and it will continue to be about Jesus. Amen. I'm going to call up Pastor Joshua McCord to come close for us in prayer. But before he does, um I'd just like to speak about this uh agenda of food. Um I'd just like to invite the section 22 um committee, the deputy chair of the

[02:20:11]
CRL and the CEO of the CRL, all commissioners uh to the press briefing that will be held outside that door. Michelle is standing there. Just put your hand up. if you can walk towards that direction. This also includes if you can just walk that direction, go back into the um the room that received us this morning. We'll be having lunch in there and there will be a press briefing to make it even further clearer. If you are not wearing a red thing like this, um please don't follow um these people. Pastor Josh, please close for us in prayer so that we may have lunch. Thank you. Can we stand as we pray and

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close in prayer today? [Music] Thank you Jesus that today we stand together amidst our adversity united in our cause to bring you glory in our nation. I thank you father today for giving us your protection and your peace in this moment. And I celebrate the diversity of our brothers and sisters in and outside of this room that worship you, that serve

[02:21:42]
you, that are called to your purpose and are a part of your bride. God, I thank you today that you bless us and protect us, that you smile on us and be gracious to us, that your favor will follow us, and that we will go in your peace. I thank you that as we move together towards a brighter South Africa and a better church, grace us with your wisdom. Give us patience and understanding. Allow us to be effective in making your bride beautiful. We ask for your protection and your wisdom and your guidance. We pray for our government. We pray for our leaders. and we don't run away from the responsibility that as the Christian

[02:22:27]
church we are here to play a role a key role in building our nation for future generations. We ask this in your name the mighty name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. Lunch is served.